ER9X MODE 2/4 switch for 2 pilots

[Geni0815]

2 pilots with different stick assignments want to fly the same model. How on the airfield, the mode is changable?
The last point in the RADIO SETUP has no effect, unfortunately.
I use R699.
Thank you for your help

Geni

[MikeB]

How different are the stick assignments, unless you are going to switch the springs and ratchet, the throttle is surely going to stay on the same stick, so thje elevator will stay on the other. So now you only have aileron and rudder left to deal with.
Or am I missing something?

Mike

[Geni0815]

You are correct to the cross switches MODE2 MODE4 from right to left and the rudder from left to right.
In the transmitters of MPX, Graupner Futaba and this will change automatically when changing the menu of fashion. This is what I also expected if I change this in the RADIO SETUP.
If I do this in the settings of companion9x and download to the transmitter, it's like I expected.
Outside the home but I have no computer with me.
What is the last point in the RADIO SETUP mode?

Geni

[MikeB]

I see what you are asking for. Currently er9x uses the mode setup to work out which stick is used as inputs to the mixers. If you look at your mix with the aileron as input it says AIL. If you now change the mode from 2 to 4, and then look at the mix again, it will now say RUD. When a mix is entered, the physical stick, as defined by the mode setting is stored as the input.
Now it may be possible to change this, so that changing the mode setting does what you are asking for. However, this is not a trivial change as we would need to make sure the trims swap as well, and also make sure nothing else gets upset.
I'll add this to my list of things to look at, but I have several other things to look at first.
Is this something that is generally needed?
If this is very rarely needed, then it could be done by defining the aileron and rudder output to be dependant on one of the switches that therefore swaps them over. Quicker than going into the menu anyway.

Mike.

[Geni0815]

Thanks Mike, if you can put this on your list. In my environment we do this regularly when new models are flown or optimized.
That this is no trivial matter, I can understand, but we are so used to from other transmitters.
It would be very happy if this will soon be realized times, the comfort is improved by factors.

Geni

[wheelspinner20]

Geni, I answered on the other thread.

Mike, Couldnt he just use R for replace int he multiplex to use rudder for what WAS the ail channel?? same swap for the ail input going over to the rudder??

Wouldnt that be a LOT easier than re-writing code??

I will try eepe now.

Pat

I guess I will repeat what I wrote on the groups thread. I think it would be safest and easiest to program a 2nd model. 1st for Geni with mode 2 mixing, and the 2nd for other pilot ... Name the model geni-mig29 for example, and the other model Alexander-mig29. That way there is no confusion. As long as you guys don't have more than 8 models to take to the field to fly , you are ok.!

[wheelspinner20]

Geni, attached is an eepe file that is a simple 4 channel setup that starts as ch 1234 ail, ele, throttle, rudder, respectively.

Click on simulate, and you will see that it will fly like a normal simple 4 channel.

Now click on the RUD switch to light it green. You will see that aileron is now controlled by the throttle stick moving it in its l.r. axis. and the rudder is now controlled by what WAS the ail stick.
If your channels are not configured that way on your receiver, you can change it around as yo us see fit.

Enjoy

Pat

edit: again I think the safest way is to save a model as one mode, copy that one, change the mix, and make the name of the other model with HIS name on it... that way you SEE it big with your eyes, and you don't have to guess a switch, and whether or not it is correct. THEN AGAIN, a proper pre-flight control surface check is supposed to eliminate that.! If i had a dollar for every time I lifted off with the wrong model loaded.... oh well.

[MikeB]

This can be done using mixes. The general question is how should the stick mode actually work. It does seem that if changing the stick mode changes the mixes so that what was aileron becomes rudder, this is not really correct.
Erazz, if you read this, what do you think? Should changing the stick mode effectively re-assign the AIL input to the mixes to a different stick?

Mike.

[wheelspinner20]

It was discussed B.M. (before mike) I thought it simply assigned the labels tot he stick positions. I have never really tried to change the mode on a established model to see if it did anything. THere were arguments both ways. I think it boiled down to... Oh well, I will let erazz explain his own argument.!@

P.

[erazz]

I'd like to ditch the "mode" thing altogether. Just set up stick 1 => RUD, Stick 2 => ELE etc...

We've been there before. Should we switch mix sources after changing mode? Say if the setup is like htis
CH1 AIL
CH2 ELE
CH3 THR
CH4 RUD

And we change mode should it be transformed to:
CH1 AIL
CH2 THR
CH3 ELE
CH4 RUD

Or so...


Certainly in some cases it would reduce the confusion of people. People expect when they change mode to have different outputs. But then again, that's not the er9x "way" of separating inputs and outputs. Ultimately after looking at it for quite some time and actually trying to program it in I came to the conclusion that it's a wrong solution. It causes more problems than it solves.


The correct solution is actually to ditch the naming convention and refer to the sticks as "stick 1" or maybe "ST1" etc... However that seemes very alien and not intuative. Ultimately I came to the conclusion that the system we have, while not perfect, is pretty good.


That doesn't mean it should stay like it! Keep on challanging it. We should be open to new solutions.

[erazz]

Actually I think it's one of the very rare cases that I had to make a choice. Not a descision based on facts but rather a choice between two different ways, neither of which is right or wrong. Difficult really.

[wheelspinner20]

I personally like it the way it is....

But erazz, if you had the same situation as geni, which solution would you choose. Switch it between mixes on the same model, or make 2 models?

Me personally, I would tell my friend, who wanted to fly my plane... to learn how to control it the mode 2 way like everyone else.!!! lol

[erazz]

Seems to me that the easiest solution is to copy the model memory and change the relevant mixes. But again, the nice thing is that there are many ways to accomplish the same thing.

[Geni0815]

I see there are many options and different views.
If the task is to fly a model over a pilot and the different MODE. The model should be optimized. So a pilot wants to help others. Since a copy of the model is not there any trim levels or mixer helps change only in the copies. Of course, now says the programmer, we make the copy again as the new original.
But there is a radio setup menu item of exactly that purports to do what I expect. (Replacing the transmitter stick).
If the task is that a friend wants only to fly, this can be solved only with a copy of the model, but it must be programmed at the transmitter!
If the last line in RADIO setup is not inside I wouldn't have thought that this nice feature would also been supported.

Geni
PS: See what I found in the manual of ER9x (page 14)

Mode2.jpg (93.85 KiB) Viewed 15180 times

[MikeB]

I appreciate your problem, however it would appear you are the first (only?) to decide it is a problem. I think most people who are helping others to fly use the buddy box system. With this, on er9x, the master system can be on one mode and the trainee system on another. All the mixes areon the master system, the trainee just sends the raw stick positions, mapped to replace the master sticks as defined in the trainer setup menu.
While it is clearly possible to consider changing modes "on the fly", only certain changes are possible easily. To change from mode 1 to mode 2 requires physically moving the springs and ratchet between sticks, not something you are likely to do at the field.
I have left this on my todo list as something to consider, however it is NOT an easy change, and I can see several possible things that could end up not quite right, so the changes will need a lot of careful testing.

Mike.

[erazz]

Every time this comes up I get into this brain bender again
Try thinking about it deeply. It's not really simple is it? Ahhh. Let's take another poke at it.

I actually got it wrong. The [SRC] DOES CHANGE when changing modes.

So, starting with mode 2:
CH1 RUD
CH2 ELE
CH3 THR
CH4 AIL

Changing to mode 1 changes things to:
CH1 RUD
CH2 THR
CH3 ELE
CH4 AIL


AAAAGHGGGHGGHHHHH!!!!!


This isn't the first time I have looked at it and not the first time I figured out it's the right way to do things.
Need to look at it again. Damn!

[jhsa]

erazz, I don't mean to confuse you even more.. but I think that the channel order remain the same and only the sticks change.
if throttle was for example on channel 3, it will stay on ch3 but respond to a different stick

[erazz]

That's what I wrote isn't it?

[jhsa]

Every time this comes up I get into this brain bender again
Try thinking about it deeply. It's not really simple is it? Ahhh. Let's take another poke at it.

I actually got it wrong. The [SRC] DOES CHANGE when changing modes.

So, starting with mode 2:
CH1 RUD
CH2 ELE
CH3 THR
CH4 AIL

Changing to mode 1 changes things to:
CH1 RUD
CH2 THR
CH3 ELE
CH4 AIL


AAAAGHGGGHGGHHHHH!!!!!


This isn't the first time I have looked at it and not the first time I figured out it's the right way to do things.
Need to look at it again. Damn!

maybe i'm confused and misunderstood what i've read but i see it this way

So, starting with mode 2:
Stick 1 - CH1 RUD
Stick 4 - CH2 ELE
Stick 2 - CH3 THR
Stick 3 - CH4 AIL

Changing to mode 1 changes things to:
Stick 1 - CH1 RUD
Stick 2 - CH2 ELE
Stick 4 - CH3 THR
Stick 3 - CH4 AIL

[erazz]

It is actually like this:

So, starting with mode 2:
Stick 1 - CH1 RUD
Stick 4 - CH2 ELE
Stick 2 - CH3 THR
Stick 3 - CH4 AIL

Changing to mode 1 changes things to:
Stick 1 - CH1 RUD
Stick 4 - CH2 THR
Stick 2 - CH3 ELE
Stick 3 - CH4 AIL



See. Confusing!
The same stick does the same thing but the naming has changed.

[jhsa]

erazz, you are changing the channel numbers of the elevator and throttle.. that way the person will have to change the channels on the receiver.. the elevator servo and the throttle..
only the stick assignment should change.. not the channel order

[Geni0815]

So, starting with mode 2:
Stick 1 - CH1 RUD
Stick 4 - CH2 ELE
Stick 2 - CH3 THR
Stick 3 - CH4 AIL

Changing to mode 1 changes things to:
Stick 1 - CH1 RUD
Stick 2 - CH2 ELE
Stick 4 - CH3 THR
Stick 3 - CH4 AIL

This is correct, in memory of the receiver, the servos remain on the same channel.
It is only the stick of this channel is changed on the transmitter.
In companion9x this can be seen via simulation when changing the mode.
In eePe this does not work by simulation.

Geni

[MikeB]

I've been looking into this. The way er9x is currently set up, it uses the MODE setting to determine which PHYSICAL stick controls a particular mix. If you change to MODE, then the name (RUD AIL etc.) assigned to a particular PHYSICAL stick gets changed, the mixes are unchanged. Now it could be argued this is not the best way, but this IS how it is.
I'm not sure there is an easy way to change this that avoids messing up everybodys existing mixes. This could be dangerous as somebody could try to fly, without fully checking their controls first, then find the aircraft cannot be controlled, because they have unexpectedly been swapped.
Unless there is a way of changing this, that guarantees the integrity of existing setups, I reckon it is best left as it is.

Mike.

[Geni0815]

So with the firmware of th9x (Thus) does the mode switching so had expected. I think from that time get the menu item.
I think if you don't want this support, it would remove the best and the menu item.

Geni

[erazz]

I think we're saying that we do want to fix this but we want to find out HOW to fix it and how to prevent messing everybody else while we're doing it.

[MikeB]

I'm thinking - we have an 8 bit store for the mode value, currently this stores 0 to 3, I think, for modes 1 to 4. How about split this into two 4-bit values. 1 4-bit value is as we have it, the other stores a value 1 to 4 representing this transmitters 'original' mode, used to set mixes etc. If the new value is zero, then it has never been set, so we set it based on the current stickmode value (=stickmode+1).
Now we know what mode was/is used to set mix data, and we also know what mode is currently required. The difference, if any, is then used to re-order the stick values (and trims).

Mike.

[erazz]

Another option would be to set a differend mdvers and make sure we run something to translate the mixes if upgrading.
Since we're already contemplating a big change this seems like a great oppurtunity to do some maintnance on the struct. What do you think?

[MikeB]

Certainly sort out the structure(s) in the EEPROM.
I was trying to avoid adding translation code that will only run once, and then just sit there taking up flash. We could, of course do something like, announce that the structure has changed and require the existing EEPROM to be read out by eepe, updated, and then put back as part of the updating procedure.

Mike.