FrSky officially X9D announcement

Hardware help and support for the FrSky Taranis
Iksbob
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Re: FrSky officially X9D announcement

Post by Iksbob » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:18 am

ShowMaster wrote:Any rumors on a release date for Taranis schematics? I'm hoping it'll not be kept secret.
IIRC, the available '9X schematics were pulled from an FCC (or some other similar agency's) approval/compliance document. If that's the case, it would be a matter of someone with the proper connections or know-how requesting the document and posting it publicly.


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thomas9x
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Re: FrSky officially X9D announcement

Post by thomas9x » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:17 am

IIRC, the available '9X schematics were pulled from an FCC (or some other similar agency's) approval/compliance document. If that's the case, it would be a matter of someone with the proper connections or know-how requesting the document and posting it publicly.
Unfortunately the FCC observes confidentiality requests on schematic submissions. I think this is a rather new thing since up to about five years ago I never saw anyone in the R/C industry do it. So long story short, they (the FCC) will not be releasing the X9d schematics to the public. Here's the confidentiality admission for the Taranis:
Taranis_confidential.pdf
(19.43 KiB) Downloaded 591 times
But here's some good stuff they can share:
RF Test Report:
Taranis_rf_data.pdf
(2.37 MiB) Downloaded 1065 times
Preliminary User Manual, as submitted to the FCC:
Taranis_user_manual.pdf
(1.51 MiB) Downloaded 1656 times
If anyone wants to see the entire public submission then just go to fcc.gov and search FCC ID XYFX91216DK.

- Thomas

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Re: FrSky officially X9D announcement

Post by rainer » Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:12 pm

just paid my taranis....
build your own vario ==> https://github.com/openXsensor/openXsensor/wiki (Formerly https://code.google.com/p/openxsensor/ and https://code.google.com/p/openxvario/)

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Re: FrSky officially X9D announcement

Post by rainer » Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:01 pm

but still don't hold it in my hands....
build your own vario ==> https://github.com/openXsensor/openXsensor/wiki (Formerly https://code.google.com/p/openxsensor/ and https://code.google.com/p/openxvario/)

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Re: FrSky officially X9D announcement

Post by ShowMaster » Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:29 pm

I think this is what's going on?
Now that the Frsky TX has gone retail with a 1 yr warranty they are protecting themselves. Any circuit modifications should only be made at a warranty station for legal reasons. This is how Futaba, JR, Spekturm and Airtronics works also.
I did make an inquiry to Frsky about schematics and was offered the option of applying for developer/designer status. I've done that and have emailed them my licensing, electronics background, and rework station equipment. I'm waiting for a reply and what other résumé I may need to submit.
This and probably signing a non disclosure agreement may be the only way they will release this proprietary info?
Worth a try in my case.
I'm thinking this is no longer a open source wiring project like the 9x is/was.
We lucked out because FlySky left their schematics on the FCC site and others redrew them to be more current. That and Frsky and HK never made any effort to stop us that I know of.
The Taranis isn't a hack tx I'm thinking.
Time will tell.
SkyNorth has made all his schematics and board layouts available and that why I bought several.


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Re: FrSky officially X9D announcement

Post by Kilrah » Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:35 pm

The problem is not about making it difficult for hackers, it's about not delivering other manufacturers who will see the enthusiasm everything they need to come up with a perfect copy in 3 months.

They're just protecting their development investment. Skynorth was doing it for fun. FrSky have to live with it for years to come.

As said many times, anybody who wants pointers just need to ask those who know about the section they're interested in. And apart from that it's not like it's that hard to follow PCB traces in the first place.

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Re: FrSky officially X9D announcement

Post by s_mack » Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:36 pm

once again this forum loses my post... sigh

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Re: FrSky officially X9D announcement

Post by Rob Thomson » Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:57 pm

s_mack wrote:once again this forum loses my post... sigh
What do you mean?

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Re: FrSky officially X9D announcement

Post by Iksbob » Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:02 am

Kilrah wrote:And apart from that it's not like it's that hard to follow PCB traces in the first place.
That depends on how many layers the board has. Some of the proprietary FPGA-based PCI boards at my last job had 8, and I hear PC motherboards often have still more. If any of those layers have ground planes, holding the board up to a light isn't going to work. It's a similar issue to ICs and potted electronics - destructive disassembly or some kind of 3D x-ray scanning rig is the only way you're going to figure out what's inside.
As a chip gets smaller and higher pin count (the FPGAs in my above example were about an inch square, with around 400 I/O pins), it becomes necessary to add PCB layers just to get the connections away from the chip footprint. I doubt the ARM chip used in the Taranis is quite so extreme, but you get the point.

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Re: FrSky officially X9D announcement

Post by s_mack » Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:48 am

Rob Thomson wrote:
s_mack wrote:once again this forum loses my post... sigh
What do you mean?

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2
Sorry, just got frustrated.

It has happened several times that I've typed something and hit submit... then it warns me that someone else posted more recently - that's OK, that's a cool feature actually, if it worked properly/consistently - and then I hit submit again, and "can't display this page". Refresh or back and my typing is lost.

I don't have too much right to get frustrated though. A) I realize its probably my browser or something and I know "sh*t happens" with this sort of thing and B) I know better anyway and should copy my work before posting because many things can happen to cause loss of a post.

So I apologize for the outburst. Just frustrated. I had something to contribute, and I didn't want to type it all out again.

Bad mood is all. Resume discussion.

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Re: FrSky officially X9D announcement

Post by Rob Thomson » Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:38 am

I will see if I can reproduce :)

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Re: FrSky officially X9D announcement

Post by MikeB » Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:39 am

S_mack: I've had the odd problem like that, but I've found that, on my browser, if I hit the "back" button it takes me back to a display with all my typed text still in the reply box. I usually then mark it all and hit ctrl-C to make sure I have it copied before proceeding.

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Re: FrSky officially X9D announcement

Post by SkyNorth » Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:11 pm

Kilrah wrote: They're just protecting their development investment. Skynorth was doing it for fun. FrSky have to live with it for years to come.
It is not "fun" when you have to invest $7000 to make boards , only to have your all your ideas/features copied , and then announce a
fictitious release date , causing people to drop out of interest for your product...

-Brent

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Re: FrSky officially X9D announcement

Post by s_mack » Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:34 pm

Well the lines get blurred on that one *shrug*. I mean, your USB connector method looked awefully familiar! And what about Gruvin... he was the first to commercialize a replacement board. Point being that ideas/features are hard to say who's they truly were, but I get what you're saying. FrSky did help themselves to a lot for this product and the community seems to love them for it. Do we see Thus's name on it? Eraz's? Yours? Would any of this be possible without them? But who profits?

Does it matter? Its the way of the world, right?

It is too bad you made a production decision based on their "release date" though... not that you had much choice. You're right, that people put too much stock into myth and make purchase decisions based on rumor and misinformation. My sales took a hit when the 9xr was announced and then again when it was released... but both times rebounded. I've been expecting an "end of life" for awhile now, and the x9d may very well precipitate the end... or maybe it won't. We *still* don't know much of anything about this thing (which is amazing, considering how long this hype has been going on).

its morning... I ramble in the morning.

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Re: FrSky officially X9D announcement

Post by jhsa » Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:45 pm

Many people will still buy the best cheap radio around.. The 9x ;) :)

The taranis is not cheap. It is cheaper than many others but it doesn't fall in the cheap category anymore.. And I guess that when some of the people that bought the 9x read these forums, will want to mod it.. It will only stop when those radios stop being produced and I don't think flysky will finish their production just yet :)

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Re: FrSky officially X9D announcement

Post by s_mack » Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:58 pm

Even if they halt production, there's probably > 10,000 units in the chain. I'm not worried about it.

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Re: FrSky officially X9D announcement

Post by Flaps 30 » Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:26 pm

And you can bet that as the price second hand or/and new of the 9X falls through the floor, that there will be an increase of people looking to use your boards Steven. :)

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Re: FrSky officially X9D announcement

Post by SkyNorth » Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:50 pm

Hats off to Gruvin , he did a most of the legwork on the hardware, which made most of mods / addons possible.
Cheers

-Brent

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Re: FrSky officially X9D announcement

Post by Scott Page » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:08 pm

As for who profits.... I totally understand the financial end of it -- but let me put a slightly different spin on things. Financial stuff aside, I think the hobbiest profits. One after another innovative folks have stood on the shoulders of others work to get to the point we're at today where we have options for purchase that two years we only dreamed about. Gruvin, SkyNorth, Eraz, Romolo, Mike B, Bertrand, Thus, Andre and others have all made tremendous contributions to the hobby. I know respect doesn't pay the bills --but we need a monument for all who have contributed. I know FrSky is vilified for some decisions - but their decision to allow their first major product to be introduced with open source firmware is very courageous and risky. It will be interesting if they use open source for their second transmitter.
Last edited by Scott Page on Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: FrSky officially X9D announcement

Post by jhsa » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:16 pm

Yes, they will.. At least it is what they told me ;) And I do hope they keep to it otherwise I will use the 9x for the rest of my life:D :mrgreen:
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Re: FrSky officially X9D announcement

Post by MikeB » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:41 pm

Many of us have provided time and effort, as you say, to help get where we are today, however:
Gruvin, S_mack and SkyNorth have designed hardware that they sold (sell for S_mack). To do this has required them to invest MONEY as well as time. In the case of SkyNorth, I believe he lost MONEY on the SKY board for the 9X, as well as providing time and effort.

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Re: FrSky officially X9D announcement

Post by Scott Page » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:49 pm

Mike, You're right and that's a shame. I know Bertrand had more expenses than donations at one point - mostly for shipping charges. That is a real downer.
Same thing for David Ankers @ open Pilot - he's out (behind) tens of thousands of dollars. :o
But I wanted to point out that you guys - the developers - the designers - the engineers - are a part of something really special -- I want to point out that there is a silver lining on the big black cloud. You've done something that most people only dream about -- you've made a change -- made a difference -- permanently.

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Re: FrSky officially X9D announcement

Post by jhsa » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:15 pm

+1 definitely.
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Re: FrSky officially X9D announcement

Post by Flaps 30 » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:27 pm

MikeB wrote:In the case of SkyNorth, I believe he lost MONEY on the SKY board for the 9X, as well as providing time and effort.
Which is painful to say the least. So what went wrong? Was it purely a case of getting the figures wrong on the production costs versus the price to us as users or some unforeseen issue?

The only way that most of us can help is through donations to the people (including Skynorth) concerned who have put their hands in their pockets to buy transmitters and other kit to help them out and make it less of a financial burden for them to carry, along with their time and effort which comes free(ish). I am sure that they would appreciate it and it might also keep the home commanders happier with what they do for us all.

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Re: FrSky officially X9D announcement

Post by jhsa » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:40 pm

well, I just stopped smoking, so..... I would say at least another 24 hours. then we will go from there ;)

also, I'm not rich and I'm already married :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: FrSky officially X9D announcement

Post by Clivew » Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:54 am

jhsa wrote:well, I just stopped smoking, so..... I would say at least another 24 hours. then we will go from there ;)

also, I'm not rich and I'm already married :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Stopping smoking is easy, I've done it lots of times :roll:

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Re: FrSky officially X9D announcement

Post by jhsa » Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:57 am

Yeah, I used to stop every half hour or so ;) :D
Not good :(
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Re: FrSky officially X9D announcement

Post by Scott Page » Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:09 am

Flaps 30 wrote:
MikeB wrote:In the case of SkyNorth, I believe he lost MONEY on the SKY board for the 9X, as well as providing time and effort.
Which is painful to say the least. So what went wrong? Was it purely a case of getting the figures wrong on the production costs versus the price to us as users or some unforeseen issue?
Production losses from failed boards. I don't recall the number exactly, but he had what seemed to me like an unacceptable number of boards that arrived defective -- 8% rings a bell -- but not sure. I think he was able to rework some by hand. Additionally, he was not doing this to make money (I don't think) so he didn't have a sufficient margin to buffer his losses.

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Re: FrSky officially X9D announcement

Post by SkyNorth » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:30 am

I did pick up some design work because of the project. The accessories I sold helped offset the cost of things.
So I came close to breaking even , my point was more when you start investing that much money in a "hobby" project ,
it takes the "fun" out of it........The Sky9x will rise again !

-Brent

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Re: FrSky officially X9D announcement

Post by ShowMaster » Sat Jul 20, 2013 2:40 pm

You should send all the big boy RC systems a resume Brent. I think after they recover from denying the rc technology revolution they may want to jump start their product line.
Look at what the tablet did to Microsoft and the laptop industry.
SM


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