New bug possibly discovered on 9x ("pot no. 3 bug")

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Nadim
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New bug possibly discovered on 9x ("pot no. 3 bug")

Post by Nadim » Sun Mar 20, 2016 7:24 am

Dear fellows

Yesterday I discovered by chance a very strange behaviour of pot no. 3 on both of my Turnigy 9x transmitters. One of them has OpenTX 2.0.19, the other one 2.0.17, and both show the issue. Also, one of them has inside the smartieparts programming board, the other doesn't, and still both show the same issue under the same conditions. They are both the M128 version.

I thought that making a video would be much better than just trying to explain the issue by words, so I did, and here you'll find it: https://vimeo.com/159668441

Watching the video is probably going to be more quickly, but here's an explanation for those who have a slow connection: ;)

Pot number 3, called "P3" in OpenTX, shows an odd behaviour under certain (quite specific) conditions. To trigger the issue, you have to put pot no. 3 on its lowest position (with the three bars indicators in the main screen as a reference), then... just play around moving pot 1 and 2 up and down, randomly, rather quickly, without touching pot no. 3. After 10-15 seconds the indicator of pot no. 3 will jump up to its maximum position, by itself. If you try to actually operate it, the bar will move, but only slightly. To get pot no. 3 back to normal, just put it to its lowest reachable position and then play around again with pot 1 and 2. Out of maybe 10 times I tried to trigger this issue, I once had a blank screen and a completely dead TX, that made me switch it off and on again. In all the other cases I just made the pot behave normally again.

This is really weird. I've used this radio for one and half year and I only found out this issue yesterday. I did some research on the internet but I found pretty much nothing about it.

It reminds me of this issue: http://openrcforums.com/wiki/index.php/ ... Ground_Fix, making me think it has something to do with wiring, or grounding, but electronics isn't really my field, so I don't know.

Also, the issue seems to show up only with pot no. 3 - that is, operating pots 1 and 2. I tried operating 1 and 3 and 2 and 3, to see whether pots 2 and 1 would show the issue, but nothing happened.

Now, I did remember I have seen here on openrcforums a thread in which Mike was saying that pot 1 and 2 are indeed wired differently than pot 3 (if I remember correctly). Maybe it has something to do with it.

Anyway folks, maybe the solution is simple, I don't really know. :(
Last edited by Nadim on Sun Mar 20, 2016 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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jhsa
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Re: New bug possibly discovered on 9x ("pot no. 3 bug")

Post by jhsa » Sun Mar 20, 2016 10:29 am

Pots are all wired to the analog ground. The problem you refer to was with the trims, not the pots.

To me it looks like a bug in the firmware.. I will try on my 9x. Mine runs er9x though, not opentx.

João
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Re: New bug possibly discovered on 9x ("pot no. 3 bug")

Post by Nadim » Sun Mar 20, 2016 11:15 am

jhsa wrote:Pots are all wired to the analog ground. The problem you refer to was with the trims, not the pots.
Yes I meant that it looked similar, as if there were some problems with grounding.
jhsa wrote: To me it looks like a bug in the firmware.. I will try on my 9x. Mine runs er9x though, not opentx.
Uhm, I was unsure where to open this thread as for now it's hard to tell if it's the firmware or the 9x itself, but I thought that realistically it had to do with the hardware. I can't be sure of course.

Yes I would like to hear from other people, if someone else running either er9x, or opentx, has this issue.

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Re: New bug possibly discovered on 9x ("pot no. 3 bug")

Post by ReSt » Sun Mar 20, 2016 11:27 am

I can confirm that it is happening on my radio too (Turnigy 9X, privately modified OpenTx version 2.1.7, running on M128, Trim switch fix done)

Playing with P1,P2, pot P3 value suddenly jumps from -100 to +79.4 (always 79.4)
Turning P3 increases up to +100 or down again to +79.4. Offset in the mixer stays 0, Limits stay unchanged.
When playing further with P1 and P2, pot P3 suddenly jumps back to -100 and from there it again moves between -100 and +100

My main compile switches are
M128 CPU, Heli, Templates, Double Keys, Audio, Voice, Graphics, Battgraph, PPMCenter adjustable, PPMLimits symetrical, PPm Unit Precision1, Flight Phases, Curves, GVARS

Reinhard

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Re: New bug possibly discovered on 9x ("pot no. 3 bug")

Post by ReSt » Sun Mar 20, 2016 11:41 am

I was also able to get that behaviour on my other radio (Turnigy 9x with M128 with r820 privately modded)
I only succeeded to get it jumping two times (-100 to +80.0)
It immediately returned to -100 when I turned P1 from+100 downward.

After these two situations, I was not able to provoke this behaviour again.

Main compile options on this radio are M128, Heli, Templates, FrSky+N2F, Speaker, Bootloader

Reinhard


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Re: New bug possibly discovered on 9x ("pot no. 3 bug")

Post by Nadim » Sun Mar 20, 2016 11:48 am

Reinhard

thank you for your feedback. Then there IS something... :geek:
ReSt wrote:I was also able to get that behaviour on my other radio (Turnigy 9x with M128 with r820 privately modded)
Which version of which OS are you running in this radio?

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Re: New bug possibly discovered on 9x ("pot no. 3 bug")

Post by ReSt » Sun Mar 20, 2016 11:50 am

Opentx 2.1.7 and ER9x 820

Reinhard

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Nadim
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Re: New bug possibly discovered on 9x ("pot no. 3 bug")

Post by Nadim » Sun Mar 20, 2016 11:54 am

So if it's a software problem, it's affecting OpenTX AND ER9x: I don't understand much of electronics, but I have a strong feeling it's something with the hardware...

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Re: New bug possibly discovered on 9x ("pot no. 3 bug")

Post by bob195558 » Sun Mar 20, 2016 12:08 pm

Looks like, it is a firmware problem in OpenTx firmware.
er9x and erSky9x dose not have this behavior. :)

Bob B.
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Re: New bug possibly discovered on 9x ("pot no. 3 bug")

Post by Nadim » Sun Mar 20, 2016 12:24 pm

bob195558 wrote:Looks like, it is a firmware problem in OpenTx firmware.
er9x and erSky9x dose not have this behavior. :)

Bob B.
But Reinhard just said that he was able to replicate the issue on its er9x loaded 9x...
Last edited by Nadim on Mon Mar 21, 2016 6:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New bug possibly discovered on 9x ("pot no. 3 bug")

Post by jhsa » Sun Mar 20, 2016 12:28 pm

I have a 9x with atmega 2561 running a test version of er9x_v2. Couldn't make it happen. No trims mods whatsoever. I will install the latest er9x in a while and test it.

Reinhard, can you confirm that your er9x radio is also doing the same problem?
If so that could mean two things
1 - Hardware problem that was never detected.
2 - A very old problem that could exist even before openTX..

João
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Re: New bug possibly discovered on 9x ("pot no. 3 bug")

Post by bob195558 » Sun Mar 20, 2016 12:51 pm

I do not have the M128 processor, that could be where it is coming from.

Bob B.
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Re: New bug possibly discovered on 9x ("pot no. 3 bug")

Post by ReSt » Sun Mar 20, 2016 1:58 pm

jhsa wrote:
Reinhard, can you confirm that your er9x radio is also doing the same problem?
If so that could mean two things
1 - Hardware problem that was never detected.
2 - A very old problem that could exist even before openTX..

João
Yes I can confirm.
As I described above.
I got it two times and then no more.

Reinhard

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Re: New bug possibly discovered on 9x ("pot no. 3 bug")

Post by jhsa » Sun Mar 20, 2016 2:08 pm

I flashed my 9x m2561 radio with the latest release of er9x, restored my old eeprom, and I cannot reproduce the problem..

João

EDIT: Just tried again. No joy.. :)

I have boards with m128, but no pots ;)
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Re: New bug possibly discovered on 9x ("pot no. 3 bug")

Post by KAL » Sun Mar 20, 2016 2:28 pm

jhsa wrote:Pots are all wired to the analog ground...
Hi João,

I don't know if it's evident for the actual problem but are you shure?

Two of the pots are tied to the backboard.
At the moment I don't have a schematic at hand but
as far as I know there's no analog ground available there ...

Klaus
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Re: New bug possibly discovered on 9x ("pot no. 3 bug")

Post by mmilan » Sun Mar 20, 2016 2:41 pm

I confirmed this behavior on a m128( new ) with 9xtreme. It occours with pot 3 at minimum or maximum or any value in between. Monitoring on the Diagana page in hardware, if any value on pot 3 is positive then then value goes to -82 and stays there until further manipulation of pots 2 & 3. It then goes back to the normal pot 3 value. If the starting value is negative then the opposite occurs. If on the starting series of display pages the screen also goes blank but still illuminated. The blanking does not occur if on the hardware-Diagana page. Interesting. All the other controls are still functional on the hardware-Diagana page. I assume but did not test if one still has control of a model's receiver. The behavior did not occur with manipulation of pots 4 & 5.
Hope this helps
Mike

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Re: RE: Re: New bug possibly discovered on 9x ("pot no. 3 bug")

Post by jhsa » Sun Mar 20, 2016 3:05 pm

KAL wrote:
jhsa wrote:Pots are all wired to the analog ground...
Hi João,

I don't know if it's evident for the actual problem but are you shure?

Two of the pots are tied to the backboard.
At the moment I don't have a schematic at hand but
as far as I know there's no analog ground available there ...

Klaus
You are absolutely right. P1 and P2 seem to be connected to digital ground. Just checked.
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Re: New bug possibly discovered on 9x ("pot no. 3 bug")

Post by jhsa » Sun Mar 20, 2016 3:18 pm

Ok, I have just remembered that my 9xtreme radio does have an m128 on the 9x mainboard.
I can recreate the problem with this radio. So at the moment it looks like a problem with the m128 processor. Will try again with the m2561 radio and see if I can make it happen..
It seems the P3 get some offset when this happens.
On my radio it takes a while moving the other pots to also clear the problem.

João
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Re: New bug possibly discovered on 9x ("pot no. 3 bug")

Post by ReSt » Sun Mar 20, 2016 3:22 pm

mmilan wrote: if any value on pot 3 is positive then then value goes to -82 and stays there until further manipulation of pots 2 & 3.
Mike
It's not exactly the same with my radio.
Yes, the problem is independent from the position of P3. It happens in any position. With starting value of x, it jumps to about x+180 (that is from -100 to +80) when the error occurs.

And it looks like only pot1 can make the error to go away. Moving pot2 seemed to have no effect.
In case of error, mixes and limits look normal.
I was able to download the EEprom to the pc for Er9x as well as for OpenTx in case that could help.

Reinhard

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Re: New bug possibly discovered on 9x ("pot no. 3 bug")

Post by KAL » Sun Mar 20, 2016 3:25 pm

If I think of the trim problem caused by digital ground
and then remember the terrible scratching sound of a dirty or hardly used pot in an audio amplifier
I wouldn't be surprised if analog ground for the pots could solve the problem ... ;)
Last edited by KAL on Sun Mar 20, 2016 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New bug possibly discovered on 9x ("pot no. 3 bug")

Post by ReSt » Sun Mar 20, 2016 3:27 pm

When I downloaded the eeprom in the error situation, (with OpenTx Companion 2.1.7) the radio did a reboot after the download and the incorrect value of the pot3 still existed

Reinhard

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Re: New bug possibly discovered on 9x ("pot no. 3 bug")

Post by Kilrah » Sun Mar 20, 2016 3:59 pm

Maybe someone can measure the actual voltages on the pot wipers and related processor pins when it happens?

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Re: New bug possibly discovered on 9x ("pot no. 3 bug")

Post by ReSt » Sun Mar 20, 2016 4:06 pm

I was able to recreate the problem of P3 with only moving pot1 (pot2 untouched).
In the error situation:
I copied the failing model and the new model still showed the problem.
I created a new model and assigned the three pots to channels 5-7 (as with the previous models) and the error still persisted.

Reinhard

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Re: New bug possibly discovered on 9x ("pot no. 3 bug")

Post by MikeB » Sun Mar 20, 2016 4:26 pm

According to the schematics I have P1 and P2 use digital ground, P3 uses analog ground.
When using the 9Xtreme, the 3 pots are still read by the original processor, using the same code.
I can't reproduce the problem on M64 or M2561, or on my 9Xtreme, although I think that is using a M64 still (not certain).
When someone has the problem, please report the hex value in DiagAna for the P3 pot.

Mike.
ersky9x/er9x developer
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Re: New bug possibly discovered on 9x ("pot no. 3 bug")

Post by jhsa » Sun Mar 20, 2016 4:51 pm

9XT.
072A to 07FE when moving pot 3.

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Re: New bug possibly discovered on 9x ("pot no. 3 bug")

Post by jhsa » Sun Mar 20, 2016 4:55 pm

Another strange situation. After reading diagana value. I moved only pot1 and the value of p3 went to the minimum but still has the problem.. only now at the other end of the travel.

0000 to 00BE
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Re: New bug possibly discovered on 9x ("pot no. 3 bug")

Post by jhsa » Sun Mar 20, 2016 4:57 pm

It does seem related to P1 though.

João
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Re: New bug possibly discovered on 9x ("pot no. 3 bug")

Post by bob195558 » Sun Mar 20, 2016 5:09 pm

Just to add, the Sky9x radio dose not do it also.

Bob B.
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Re: New bug possibly discovered on 9x ("pot no. 3 bug")

Post by ReSt » Sun Mar 20, 2016 5:27 pm

When the display showed the incorrect value of +79 (instead of -100) and the DIAG ANA screen showed hex'0721' or 79 for input A7, the voltage on the slider of pot3 was 0.13 volts.

And yes, P2 is not required to create the error. P1 can do it alone.

Reinhard

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Re: New bug possibly discovered on 9x ("pot no. 3 bug")

Post by bob195558 » Sun Mar 20, 2016 5:37 pm

I do have in the box a new Turnigy9x that has the stock firmware with the M128 processor that I have not modded yet.
Not sure how to check for this new problem with stock firmware.
So then for a fix, may be take the digital ground from where we do the Horizontal Trims Rebooting / Digital Ground Fix: (viewtopic.php?f=95&t=3594&p=69475&hilit=#p69475) ? :?:

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