Realistic Joy Stick Flying

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kaos
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Realistic Joy Stick Flying

Post by kaos » Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:47 am

OK, I am going to start this topic/project to dedicate one T9X and replace the stick pots/switches/dials with readily available joy sticks on the market and connect their pots/switches to T9X to fly with. If needed I will add a 9Xtreme board to work with.
Will need a lot of help from the good fellows here.;)

so where do I start?
1st, what kind of joy sticks pots that will work/replace the T9X pots/dial? what spec I am looking for? If they are off by not much, can I mod the joystick pots a little to fit by adding some circuitry/resistor?
Yes, I will mod/decimate both the T9X and the joy sticks to get this working. :)

this is going to be a long fun project. :mrgreen:
I am looking at these types of joy sticks, not the dinky ps2 joy sticks.
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jhsa
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Re: Realistic Joy Stick Flying

Post by jhsa » Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:33 am

Why not some pedals as well?? :mrgreen:

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kaos
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Re: Realistic Joy Stick Flying

Post by kaos » Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:00 am

you mean like these :mrgreen:
It is in the plan. As long as I solve the issue how to connect them to T9X properly.
oh, don't forget, big screen with FPV OSD in front too. :lol: 3D is even better. Combined with Mission Planner satellite image. ;)
this is not a joke, it is THE project.
It has been done, watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_AKDyhpLrg
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Re: Realistic Joy Stick Flying

Post by nppc » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:07 am

jhsa wrote:Why not some pedals as well?? :mrgreen:

João
Cool! Pedals for controlling rudder! :lol:

Pavel

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kaos
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Re: Realistic Joy Stick Flying

Post by kaos » Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:29 pm

Looks like the thing I need to do is to replace the pots on the joy stick to match T9X pot.
What is the spec for T9X pot? or I can remove the T9X pot and replace the Joystick's pot? Better to get new pots just replace the Joystick's pots.
nppc wrote: Cool! Pedals for controlling rudder! :lol:
Pavel
yep, those are what a real plane's rudder looks like. ;)


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jhsa
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Re: Realistic Joy Stick Flying

Post by jhsa » Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:14 pm

Depends on the plane :) The ones I used to fly looked a bit different ;)

About the pots, the 9x pots are very difficult (if not impossible) to find. That has always been the big problem of the 9x radio. The pot will also depend on the angle the joystick travels to each side. So, better to buy joysticks that already come with matching potentiometers ;) if they are around 5k, they should be ok..

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kaos
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Re: Realistic Joy Stick Flying

Post by kaos » Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:30 pm

jhsa wrote:Depends on the plane :) The ones I used to fly looked a bit different ;)
João
they all are a bit different on different planes, I had sit in at least 10 different military/civilian plane/heli pilot seat, they are all a bit different, but one thing in common is they have 2 foot paddles. ;)

Ok, if 5K ohm pot is used in T9x, that is not hard to find. I don't have the limitation of T9X 90 stick limitation. The pot will be used to replace the joystick pot (if they are not 5K ohm pots) and connect directly to T9X. The sticks with pots in T9x will be out.
Thx for the info. I found a joystick for 20.00 and 5K ohm post (10 for 2.50) to test it out. If everything works, then I will go for the better Joysticks. :)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Pcs-WH148-Ty ... 1444103017
http://www.ceshowroom.com/ProductDetail ... 23&click=2

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kaos
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Re: Realistic Joy Stick Flying

Post by kaos » Sat Nov 21, 2015 1:02 am

Can any one tell me what is the T9X pots spec (P1-3)? Are they also 5K ohm?
Also the trim spec. these are just three way momentary switch right?

I found out I don't need to scarifies a T9X to do this project. I have one good M64 board, the original Smartie usb board and OLE screen, I can actually build a semi T9X by adding some switches and dials for this prototype project. :)

Already found the Joystick that can be used for this project that uses potentiometer.

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Kilrah
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Re: Realistic Joy Stick Flying

Post by Kilrah » Sat Nov 21, 2015 5:14 am

The pot's resistance does not matter for the way they're used, anything above 1kOhm would be good.

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kaos
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Re: Realistic Joy Stick Flying

Post by kaos » Sat Nov 21, 2015 5:19 am

Thx Kilrah. then I will use the same 5K ohm as the sticks' pot then. I already ordered a 5 pack for the sticks(gimbal). Just order another 5 pack then. This way if I mess up one or two of them I still have spares. ;)

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Re: Realistic Joy Stick Flying

Post by ReSt » Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:42 am

There is a difference between the stick pots and 'normal' pots.
Normal pots have the resistanc range spred on a 270 degree angle while the stick pot have that resistance on an angle of only 60 degree.
All the analog pots are used as voltage dividers that is, one end is attached to ground potential and the other end to +5 volt.
When the slider is rotated from one end to the other, it supplies an output voltage of 'nearly ground' (around +0.5 volt) up to 'nearly supply voltage' (around +4.5 volt).
When you use a normal pot (270 degree) as a stick pot, that is rotated for 60 degrees only, you will get a reduced output range of around +2 to +3 volts only.
This will be compensated by the calibration routine, but on the cost of a reduced resolution.

Reinhard

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Kilrah
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Re: Realistic Joy Stick Flying

Post by Kilrah » Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:20 am

The stock joystick pots would precisely likely be reduced travel ones, given a joystick typically travels even less than an RC stick. Hence the recommendation of staying with them instead of trying to replace them.

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Re: Realistic Joy Stick Flying

Post by jhsa » Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:40 am

Yes, I agree. That is the way to go ;)

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Re: Realistic Joy Stick Flying

Post by OctavioS » Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:48 am

jhsa wrote:Depends on the plane :) The ones I used to fly looked a bit different ;)

About the pots, the 9x pots are very difficult (if not impossible) to find. That has always been the big problem of the 9x radio. The pot will also depend on the angle the joystick travels to each side. So, better to buy joysticks that already come with matching potentiometers ;) if they are around 5k, they should be ok..

João
A lot of people has made the taranis gimbals mod on the 9x, so, right now its very easy to find them. I have 6 of them for instance.
3 x - 9X TX with 9xtreme board;
Turnigy 9XRpro ;
Frsky Taranis & Taranis +;
Horus x10s;
Horus x12s.
Too much radios? Yes too much damn radios. No more please.

"Sometimes you just have to take a leap and build your wings on the way down."

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Re: Realistic Joy Stick Flying

Post by kaos » Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:10 pm

Guys, thx for bringing that up. I was not even thinking the joystick would have a less travel angle than RC sticks.
My joy sticks should arrive in a wk or so. I will take it apart to see what it has.
The 5k pots I ordered most likely are 270 degree. cause they are so cheap. :) 25 cents a piece.
I actually found out in one of my old torn apart 6ch tx has 4 100 degree 5k pots after I order the pots., I forgot I have those torn tx in a box.
I also realized to build a system like this would be too boring using a stock 9x board. So I went ahead ordered a AR9X board for this project to get some "sound effect". :)
In the mean time waiting for parts, I am working on my TFT push button screen, trying to figure out how the darn Arduino program works. This can give this fly "cock pit" a little more modern feel. ;)
This project is expanding quickly. :mrgreen:

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kaos
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Re: Realistic Joy Stick Flying

Post by kaos » Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:21 pm

The joy stick is from Thrustmaster which is a French company. After many email with their tech support, they still won’t tell me any specifics about their pots. The only thing I got from them is the stick I had in mind does use pots than optical or hall effect sensor like many other joy sticks use.

octavios: keep those pots in a safety box , I may need them. ;)

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Re: Realistic Joy Stick Flying

Post by kaos » Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:00 pm

Reinhard:
1st let me say nice to see you are still around. ;) I still remember the video you made showing me on the soldering/desoldering to replace the MCU.

from what you were saying, it really does not matter the ohm resistance on the stick pot, it is the rotation degree that really matters for the resolution?
what I mean is I can use a 10K pot with 60 degree rotation will work just as good as a 60 degree 5K pot on the T9X stick?

I wonder why my torn Tx uses a 100 degree pot for the stick, may be that is why it is cheap and not good? (it was my 1st radio Tx from a 'junk' RTF 450 helicopter)
I also found my torn DX4e which I harvested the module to make a DSM module for T9x, it has 4 B12K pot for the stick, no degree specified. Is that a 60 degree pot that I can use if I need to?

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Re: Realistic Joy Stick Flying

Post by ReSt » Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:37 pm

kaos wrote:Reinhard:
1st let me say nice to see you are still around. ;) I still remember the video you made showing me on the soldering/desoldering to replace the MCU.
I'm afraid, that wasn't me. Must have been someone different ;)
it really does not matter the ohm resistance on the stick pot, it is the rotation degree that really matters for the resolution?
what I mean is I can use a 10K pot with 60 degree rotation will work just as good as a 60 degree 5K pot on the T9X stick?
That's correct (unless you'd use extremely different values).

Reinhard

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Re: Realistic Joy Stick Flying

Post by kaos » Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:13 pm

:lol: :lol: I think that is related to my recent phenomenon of keep forgetting why I went to the other room for. :lol: :lol:

thx for the clarification of the pots, that is one area (or one of) that did not get a good understanding. Now I get it, if I don't forget again. :mrgreen:
That really helps how I am going to adapt the joystick.

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Re: Realistic Joy Stick Flying

Post by kaos » Sun Nov 22, 2015 4:03 am

Weird thing happens.
so I am going to use the AR9X to do this project, so, I am looking for some switches, LCD, ..... browse through HobbyKing site, the T9X is 60.00, BUT in the US wares house, they have it on sale for $21.65. did I read it right? YES!
Heck I just ordered a new T9X + a LCD backlight for 26.00. :mrgreen:
If I just buy the switches/parts to put AR9X together will be more than that, now I have a T9X case as a spare. :)

For guys want a T9X and upgrade with AR9X or 9Xtreme. Get it now:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... duct=68582

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Re: Realistic Joy Stick Flying

Post by kaos » Sat Nov 28, 2015 4:40 am

Received the joystick today it is the thrustmaster T-Flight Hotas X Flight.
DSC03768.JPG
see the 3 button on the throttle stick base
DSC03767.JPG
see the horizontal rocker lever on front side of the throttle handle
plugged in the USB cord, PC recognized it, installed the driver. Well, that is about how long it stayed intact before spelling its guts out. :mrgreen:
opened up the throttle part to check on the pot 1st. Surely enough it has a 70 degree pot for throttle. Can't tell the resistance.
there is a 2nd pot in the throttle handle for the rocker lever which can be used as rudder control. I assume it has the same kind of pot. you can see the circuit board where the two pots one leads to the 3 points at top left and one at left vertically.
I made some measurement of the resistance see if you can help me figure out what the resistance is.
A B C: A-C:constant 29.2K ohm A-B: 7.9K B-C:33.2K when throttle at one end, and A-B:34.2K B-C: 8.7K when throttle is at the other end.
do you think this pot can be used with AR9X/ersky9x?
If this can be used directly to the AR9X board, this would be a fairly simple thing to route the wire to the AR9X board.
DSC03770.JPG
after removing the bottom of throttle base
DSC03771.JPG
here is the pot showing 70 degree and some other numbers
DSC03772.JPG
here is the circuit board where the pots and buttons wires goes to
DSC03775.JPG
the circuit board
On the circuit board there are 4 circles with fine meshed tracks in there, those are the three push button switch contact on the throttle you can see in the pic above.
the actual button inside is like this:
DSC03777.JPG
it is white rubber cup with a black flat object in it, can't tell what material the black thing is made of. I wonder those fine tracks are pressure sensor or the black flat object is some conductive material when the button is pushed the black round thing making contact with those meshed tracks and short the circuit?
I will tear apart the joystick tomorrow to check what is in that.

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Re: Realistic Joy Stick Flying

Post by jhsa » Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:41 am

Those black thingies are pushbuttons. The same type as your TV remote control has :)

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Re: Realistic Joy Stick Flying

Post by kaos » Sat Nov 28, 2015 5:31 pm

jhsa: Thx for telling me it is a 'pushbutton' instead of a 'pullbutton' :lol: :lol:

yep, that black thing in the rubber cup is made of conductive material, when the button is pushed down that connect the 'meshed' tract and short the circuit. interesting silent pushbutton switch. the rubber cup actually give you a little 'click' sensation without click sound when pushed down.

Can anyone confirm the pot is usable with the T9X/AR9X? I think 70 degree is just fine with a palm hold throttle compared to thumb controlled stick.

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Re: Realistic Joy Stick Flying

Post by MikeB » Sat Nov 28, 2015 6:31 pm

I think that should be OK. The resistance is around the limit for the analog input.

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Re: Realistic Joy Stick Flying

Post by kaos » Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:32 pm

Thx, Mike. Glad to know I can use these pots directly.

I just opened up the joystick part, it has 3 pots, one for ail, ele and twist for rudder. can't see the rudder pot but the two for ail/ele are the same, they are, wow, 40 degree pots. and I measured the stick movement, it is 40 degree. I guess with the hand holding the joystick a 90 degree movement is quite a lot, may be 40 degree for a reason.
I measured all three pots , they seem to be the same
A-B-C: A-C are constant 18.3K ohm when all 3 pots are centered (hard to measure when stick is moved the the end , they spring back) A-B and B-C are fairly constant at 29-31K ohm.
Are these fall in the range of analog input?

here is what the joystick looks like when gutted:
DSC03778.JPG
base plate off, showing two black pots for ail/ele and the circuit board. At top center area there are 3x3 dots are the connections to pots.each vertical column is for one pot.
the big black round knob in the middle of the white box is for adjustment of joystick tension.
the rudder/twist pot is inside the white cover
the big black round knob is for adjustment of joystick tension.
DSC03779.JPG
here it says 40 degree with other numbers for ele. I measure the stick movement and it is 40 degree overall movement.
DSC03780.JPG
same kind of pot for ail
DSC03781.JPG
there are some 'real' click push button. ;)
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DSC03783.JPG
Very simple main circuit board, supposedly have many different kind of presets for different PC/PS3 games.

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Re: Realistic Joy Stick Flying

Post by SkyNorth » Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:21 pm

The pots need to act as a variable voltage divider. So the pot "sits" across the 3.3v supply , and the wiper is fed to
a A/D input on the microprocessor. 5K to 10K pots are normal ..this provides enough current draw to provide a clean
output on the wiper.
You need to get some JST headers and make up a wiring harness that will plug into your board and allow you to solder the
connections needed to your sticks pots.

You could also use a USB joystick to PPM converter...and use the trainer input ...

-Brent

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kaos
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Re: Realistic Joy Stick Flying

Post by kaos » Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:14 pm

Thx Brent. that is what I am thinking, solder and plug directly into the AR9X board (wish I did not sell my Sky9x V3 board 2 yr ago ;) ). if all the pots described above is within the spec of what AR9X can take I will cut the circuit board out of that joystick and just keep the wires for pots and buttons and connect to the radio main board. may be replace a few momentary push button to on/off switch. I will probably use the existing JST connector just cut and solder the wires from the joystick to the proper wire. I have a few left over connector from previous HK back light may be usable too.
The USB connection may be more complicated because there are so many buttons on there, hard (for me) to tell how the USB signal is made of. All the 'black secret' is in that black goo covered chip. ;)
you can see there is a small joystick like button on the joystick, i believe that is actually two momentary switch as X,Y axis, I will try to replaced with a small ps2 joystick pot for FPV camera pan and tilt, if it fits inside the joystick. I have that for a while, never put it in one of my tx. http://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Quality-3D ... 35e8709536

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Re: Realistic Joy Stick Flying

Post by kaos » Sun Nov 29, 2015 6:09 pm

Tore apart the handle of throttle and joystick to check all the switches. Yep, all the switches are momentary switches.
the 'small joystick button' like control actually uses 4 momentary switches, so each direction in X, Y you move the button one of them will be clicked.
There appears to be enough room to put the PS2 joystick to replace it with a little mod.

I also just ordered these on/off latching button to replace most of the momentary switch in these two handles.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/111717858211

Brent: I will have plenty of switches/pots to test your under pillow little charm. :mrgreen:

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Re: Realistic Joy Stick Flying

Post by jhsa » Sun Nov 29, 2015 6:54 pm

You don't need to. With logical function Flip-Flop you can make any pushbutton behave as a normal switch.

L5 F-Flop TRN !L5

Press once, it turns ON, press again, it turns OFF..

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Re: Realistic Joy Stick Flying

Post by kaos » Sun Nov 29, 2015 7:04 pm

woo, good to know that. I was wondering how that flip-flop works. and it does flip-flop. :) thx.
how do you latch a voice message: TRN is on, TRN is off?


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