Introduction to the openx vario/altimeter

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Re: Introduction to the openx vario/altimeter

Post by jhsa » Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:36 am

before with the old code, both were doing the problem, remember? But now, only the plane, and worse.. the glider seems to be ok..
will try a different receiver on the plane..

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Re: Introduction to the openx vario/altimeter

Post by jhsa » Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:50 am

ooook, changed receivers, connected an old D8R receiver, and until now and since a couple minutes, no problem..

what is different on the D8R-II Plus?
Mike, regarding my question i asked before.. could I try a resistor on the serial line with the other receiver?
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Re: Introduction to the openx vario/altimeter

Post by mstrens » Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:53 am

jhsa wrote:before with the old code, both were doing the problem, remember? But now, only the plane, and worse.. the glider seems to be ok..
will try a different receiver on the plane..

João
Each time you make a test, can you send the log.
It can be that you do not get alarm because there are at least user data within the 900 ms but having no alarm does not mean that all data are transmitted. Looking at the "user valid" field from the log can help checking that there no data at all are lost.

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Re: Introduction to the openx vario/altimeter

Post by jhsa » Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:55 am

it is definitely the rx.. put the original D8R-II Plus in there and it is doing the problem again

Please see my last posts..

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Re: Introduction to the openx vario/altimeter

Post by mstrens » Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:01 pm

jhsa wrote:
Mike, regarding my question i asked before.. could I try a resistor on the serial line with the other receiver?
João
If you have an osciloscope you could check the levels of voltage on arduino pin 4 (the one used to transmit the data to rx) during the transmission. Depending of the bytes being sent voltage should be only (nearly) 0 and (nearly) 5 volt.
If voltage is for some time around 1 or 2.5 volt, it is not good.


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Re: Introduction to the openx vario/altimeter

Post by jhsa » Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:06 pm

a digital pin should send only at about 5V, right? also, if that was the case why wouldn't the other receiver have the problem?

I'm going, as a test just stick a resistor between the arduino and the RX.. But I will also scope it.. I have a very old scope though, Hameg 312.. It's a museum piece, literally..

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Re: Introduction to the openx vario/altimeter

Post by mstrens » Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:20 pm

jhsa wrote:a digital pin should send only at about 5V, right? also, if that was the case why wouldn't the other receiver have the problem?

I'm going, as a test just stick a resistor between the arduino and the RX.. But I will also scope it.. I have a very old scope though, Hameg 312.. It's a museum piece, literally..

João
It is not sure that a resistor in serie will help.
It could be the opposite: if the Adruino is not able to put the voltage at "high" (or "low") level, perhaps a resistor to vcc (or to ground) could help but anyway that is not normal.

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Re: Introduction to the openx vario/altimeter

Post by jhsa » Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:27 pm

I'm bit lost here.. the glider which has a D4R-II seem to be ok now just with the new code. the plane with the D8R-II Plus, got worse with the new code, even with the arduino code for the glider.. If I replace the rx with an old D8R, the problem seem to go away. Probably no one noticed this before because maybe both er9x and opentx used the same code for the custom switches. Now that Mike made some changes on the voice switches, the problem is detected..
I still don't know where the problem is but all is pointing to the rx.. I don't know If I have another D8R-II Plus.. will check if I do in a minute.. see if it is only this rx or if it is a problem of all of them..

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Re: Introduction to the openx vario/altimeter

Post by mstrens » Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:31 pm

jhsa wrote:I'm bit lost here.. the glider which has a D4R-II seem to be ok now just with the new code. the plane with the D8R-II Plus, got worse with the new code, even with the arduino code for the glider.. If I replace the rx with an old D8R, the problem seem to go away. Probably no one noticed this before because maybe both er9x and opentx used the same code for the custom switches. Now that Mike made some changes on the voice switches, the problem is detected..
I still don't know where the problem is but all is pointing to the rx.. I don't know If I have another D8R-II Plus.. will check if I do in a minute.. see if it is only this rx or if it is a problem of all of them..

João
I presume that openTX will not detect at all that user telemetry data are not received. I think it just keeps the last previous received values.

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Re: Introduction to the openx vario/altimeter

Post by jhsa » Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:36 pm

and what happens if you lose link?
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Re: Introduction to the openx vario/altimeter

Post by mstrens » Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:44 pm

jhsa wrote:and what happens if you lose link?
If the link is telemetry link is lost, openTx gives an alarm but in this case, it means you lost as well the "user" data (from sensors like OXS) and the internal Rx data.
I think that Mike made a change that makes a difference between lost of "user" data and lost of all telemetry data.
It is this kind of lost that you detect now.

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Re: Introduction to the openx vario/altimeter

Post by jhsa » Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:55 pm

yes, but in that case if the oXs stops working, you would never know.. as it keeps the last value then you would drain your battery completely and the radio wouldn't warn you that something is wrong..

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Re: Introduction to the openx vario/altimeter

Post by mstrens » Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:02 pm

jhsa wrote:yes, but in that case if the oXs stops working, you would never know.. as it keeps the last value then you would drain your battery completely and the radio wouldn't warn you that something is wrong..

João
I expect it is the case on openTx but Bertrand or Kilrah would have to confirm.
Still, I think that consumption is calculated on TX side base on the current.
OpenTx would then continue to increase the consumption based on the latest known current (which is perhaps a low or a high value)

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Re: Introduction to the openx vario/altimeter

Post by jhsa » Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:07 pm

still not good.. Anyway.. I connected a voltage divider to the serial pin.. nothing.. still have a problem.. will scope it now.. what were you saying about a resistor to +V or ground before?

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Re: Introduction to the openx vario/altimeter

Post by jhsa » Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:28 pm

Ok, I scoped it and am uploading a video so you can see what is happening. as far as I understand, it seems the arduino is sending a stream of pulses every half a second and then pauses for around 1 second.. so, sends data twice and then a longer pause.. Buit sometimes it kinda jumps as well. Anyway a video worth a lot of words :)
That's what on my very old scope.. if necessary will have to install the software for my logic analyser and learn how to work with it..

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Re: Introduction to the openx vario/altimeter

Post by mstrens » Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:28 pm

jhsa wrote:still not good.. Anyway.. I connected a voltage divider to the serial pin.. nothing.. still have a problem.. will scope it now.. what were you saying about a resistor to +V or ground before?

João
The arduino has the task to switch the voltage on pin 4 (connected to Tx) from a low level to a high level (and the opposite). Durations of low and high levels are normally detected by Rx and used to collect the data.
If the voltage on level high is not high enough or if the voltage on level low is not low enough, RX could perhaps not detect all transitions. In this case, Rx can interpreat the signal as garbage and do not transmit the data.

If the arduino is not able to "force" the right levels (because Arduino hardware is defect or because the Rx has a to low impedance), then a resistor can perhaps help.
If high level is to low, adding a resistor (e.g. 10 k) to Vcc can help increasing the high voltage and perhaps Rx will recognise it as "high" level.
On the opposite, if low level is to high, adding a resistor (e.g. 10 k) to ground can help decreasing the low voltage and perhaps Rx will recognise it as "low" level.
It makes no sense adding 2 resistors.
In order to know which action can help, best is to measure the voltages for low and high levels. This can't be done with a voltmeter and it requires looking at the signal with an oscilloscope.

Anyway, it seems me abnormal having to add one resistor because if the 2 components (Rx and Arduino) would works within their tolerance there should work without the resistor. But perhaps here it can help.

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Re: Introduction to the openx vario/altimeter

Post by jhsa » Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:34 pm

No it didn't.. on the scope as you will see in a minute on the video, the voltage is constant at about 4.5V

Video is nearly uploaded.. will post it here on this post..

João

Here are they. the first one is the video from the plane sensor..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AXzO7Og1X8

And this one is the video from the glider sensor. They have exactly the same code, which is the code from the glider..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeTq4nGm2zk
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Re: Introduction to the openx vario/altimeter

Post by MikeB » Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:13 pm

The serial output should idle at around 0V (inverted serial), so if you add a LED (with series resistor, say 1K) that lights when the signal is at 5V, you should see it flashing on with each packet sent. If it stays off for a second, then no data was transmitted for that second.

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Re: Introduction to the openx vario/altimeter

Post by jhsa » Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:18 pm

But you see the difference between the glider and the plane? also an older receiver works ok? I just replaced the arduinop on the plane's sensor, the problem is there.. that rules the arduino out..
one more test.. I will now connect the sensor to the glider receiver and see what happens.

João

EDIT: yep, connected the sensor to the D4R-II and the problem is there..
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Re: Introduction to the openx vario/altimeter

Post by mstrens » Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:27 pm

MikeB wrote:The serial output should idle at around 0V (inverted serial), so if you add a LED (with series resistor, say 1K) that lights when the signal is at 5V, you should see it flashing on with each packet sent. If it stays off for a second, then no data was transmitted for that second.

Mike.
This is a good and easy test.
Can you do it?

Other question:
Does the 2 OXS have the same hardware? E.g. has each OXS a MS5611.
Note : if an OXS has no MS5611, then it can be important that the line #define VARIO would be set in comment adding "//".
Note : if only one OXS has a MS5611 you can put the line #define VARIO as comment. It will not be an issue if a MS5611 is connected but not activated. It will run just it has no MS5611. For sure, in this case there is no reason asking to transmit the Altitude and the vertical speed in the config file.

When you say that both OXS runs the same code, does it means that both have exactly the same config file?

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Re: Introduction to the openx vario/altimeter

Post by MikeB » Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:31 pm

The FrSky hub protocol defines:

"Different data is sent in different time intervals. There are 3 types of frame: FRAME1 is sent per 200ms,
FRAME2 is sent per 1s, and FRAME3 is sent per 5s.
Frame1
①Three-axis Acceleration Values, Altitude (variometer-0.01m), Tempature1, Temprature2, Voltage ,
Current & Voltage (Ampere Sensor) , ②RPM
e.g:5e 24 00 04 5e 25 80 ff 5e 26 e0 fe 5e 10 3c 00 5e 21 3c 00 5e 02 ef ff 5e 05 e9 ff 5e 06 18 34 5e 28
02 00 5e 3a 0a 00 5e 3b 05 00 5e 03 63 00 5e"

So the hub sends data at least every 200mS. So a timeout of 900mS should be plenty.
To be compatible, the oXs should send something at least every 200mS, whatever the configuration or sensor values are.

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Re: Introduction to the openx vario/altimeter

Post by mstrens » Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:39 pm

jhsa wrote:No it didn't.. on the scope as you will see in a minute on the video, the voltage is constant at about 4.5V

Video is nearly uploaded.. will post it here on this post..

João

Here are they. the first one is the video from the plane sensor..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AXzO7Og1X8

And this one is the video from the glider sensor. They have exactly the same code, which is the code from the glider..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeTq4nGm2zk
When I see the 2 video it seems that:
- the high and low levels seems ok in both cases (about 4.5 and 0 volt)
- the frequency of sending a frame seems lower in the plane than in the glider. One explanation could be that the 2 config/hardware are not the same and that in the plane you are sending the current but not the Vspeed and the opposite in the glider.

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Re: Introduction to the openx vario/altimeter

Post by jhsa » Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:55 pm

both planes had the same code for the glider.. but both behave different.
on the glider I use the pressure sensor and voltage divider.. arduino is powered by receiver..
I tried also with vario commented and not commented..
on the plane, no pressure sensor, I have an ACS758 and a voltage divider. The arduino is powered directly from the 3S LiPo. the reg can handle it but I will have to put another reg before as the one from the arduino gets a bit hot.. just noticed it. But that is not the problem as I tried another arduino now and the problem is there too..
Here is a schematic of my plane's sensor. without the pressure sensor though. the resistor to ground on the V. divider has also a different value...
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OpenXSensor.sch.pdf
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Re: Introduction to the openx vario/altimeter

Post by mstrens » Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:13 pm

MikeB wrote:The FrSky hub protocol defines:

"Different data is sent in different time intervals. There are 3 types of frame: FRAME1 is sent per 200ms,
FRAME2 is sent per 1s, and FRAME3 is sent per 5s.
Frame1
①Three-axis Acceleration Values, Altitude (variometer-0.01m), Tempature1, Temprature2, Voltage ,
Current & Voltage (Ampere Sensor) , ②RPM
e.g:5e 24 00 04 5e 25 80 ff 5e 26 e0 fe 5e 10 3c 00 5e 21 3c 00 5e 02 ef ff 5e 05 e9 ff 5e 06 18 34 5e 28
02 00 5e 3a 0a 00 5e 3b 05 00 5e 03 63 00 5e"

So the hub sends data at least every 200mS. So a timeout of 900mS should be plenty.
To be compatible, the oXs should send something at least every 200mS, whatever the configuration or sensor values are.

Mike.
Mike,
The logic used in OXS seems more complex.
I just tried to reused what Rainer made.
I only sent frame1 (never a frame 2 or 3).
Every 100 ms (around) OXS tries to generate a frame 1a or a frame 1b.
If it tries to send a frame 1a once, the next time, it will try to generate a frame 1b (and the opposite)
Frame 1a does not contains the same data (measurements) as frame 1b.
Frame 1a may contains: Altitude, Vspeed, variosensitivity, alt over 10 sec, current, milliAmph (consumption) , current max, RPM
Frame 1b mays contains Cells voltage, up to 6 voltages
A value is present in a frame only if:
- the config file says that this type of measurement must be transmitted and if the specified telemetry field Id is valid (exist ; does not have to be consistent with the measurement type)
and
- OXS has calculated a new value since the previous transmission.
The delay to calculate a new measurement must be at least:
- 20 ms for VSpeed
- 100 ms for Altitude, vario sensitivity
- 500 ms for Altitude over 10 sec
- 500 ms for a voltage or the cells
- 200 ms for current and current consumption
Normally the main loop checks the delays every 10 msec.

If a frame is empty, no data are sent to Rx.

I presume that Rainer used 2 frames in order to make them shorter and so to send every 100ms instead of 200 ms.
This seems me OK.

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Re: Introduction to the openx vario/altimeter

Post by jhsa » Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:33 pm

ok, I connected a LED. Put the arduino on the breadboard, powered by it's regulator from a lipo, or from a BEC. No difference. no sensors or voltage dividers connected. on the oscilloscope it looks the same, but with the LED it seems that most of the time it sends 2 consecutive pulses and then a pause, but sometimes it sends 3 pulses and then a pause.. Is this ok?
Shall a make a video?
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Re: Introduction to the openx vario/altimeter

Post by mstrens » Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:53 pm

jhsa wrote:ok, I connected a LED. Put the arduino on the breadboard, powered by it's regulator from a lipo, or from a BEC. No difference. no sensors or voltage dividers connected. on the oscilloscope it looks the same, but with the LED it seems that most of the time it sends 2 consecutive pulses and then a pause, but sometimes it sends 3 pulses and then a pause.. Is this ok?
Shall a make a video?
João
Fine that you have add the led.
The way Arduino is powered on should not have an impact.
The way the Led blink depends on the sensors (baro, current) connected to OXS and on the config file.

In order to perform the most representative tests , could you load in your 2 OXS exactly the same config file saying that there is no vario and no current sensor but only a divider. You should transmit only the Voltage1 as VFAS_NEW. So you should have something like
//#define VARIO
//#define PIN_CurrentSensor 2
#define PIN_Voltage1 3
#define SETUP_DATA_TO_SEND FRSKY_USERDATA_VFAS_NEW , VOLT1 , 1 , 1 , 0

This set up should perform exactly in the same way whatever which sensor is connected to which Rx.
You should always connect the divider to the lipo; so the lipo value should be (the only one) available on the Tx even if the value (lipo voltage) could be different depending on the combination sensor/Rx.
So you can test 4 combinations (using 2 sensors and 2 Rx).

Blinking of the led should be the same in all combinations (having a small pause is not abnormal by having no blinking during more than 1/2 sec is abnormal).
There should be no alarm on Tx.

The first important point to know is if all combinations works exactly the same or not.
If not all work the same way, we have to look further on hardware.

Otherwise we have to test more on software.

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Re: Introduction to the openx vario/altimeter

Post by jhsa » Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:07 pm

mstrens wrote:

Blinking of the led should be the same in all combinations (having a small pause is not abnormal by having no blinking during more than 1/2 sec is abnormal).
There should be no alarm on Tx.
But it is not the same.. please look at the video. normally blinks twice and then pause.. But sometimes it blinks 3 times, and that seem to be linked to the alarms, somehow?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ik3vThAZC-Y
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Re: Introduction to the openx vario/altimeter

Post by MikeB » Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:17 pm

mstrens wrote:If a frame is empty, no data are sent to Rx.
To avoid the user timeout expiring, the oXs MUST send something. Not sending a frame because the data hasn't changed shouldn't be an option.

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Re: Introduction to the openx vario/altimeter

Post by mstrens » Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:38 pm

jhsa wrote:
mstrens wrote:

Blinking of the led should be the same in all combinations (having a small pause is not abnormal by having no blinking during more than 1/2 sec is abnormal).
There should be no alarm on Tx.
But it is not the same.. please look at the video. normally blinks twice and then pause.. But sometimes it blinks 3 times, and that seem to be linked to the alarms, somehow?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ik3vThAZC-Y
When I said the same, it does not mean that it is regular (blinking at the same interval) but that the irregularities if any would be the same if you connect OXS 1 with RX 1 or OXS 2 with RX1.

The test I asked in previous post consists of using the same config file with a minimal config that activate only one sensor (voltage divider) that exist on both OXS device.

Anyway, looking at the video with the led shows that it exists sometime a quite long delay between 2 blinking.
This is not normal and can't be the result of the Rx being used.
You could even control it : if you disconnect OXS from Rx, the blinking would remain the same.
So I think that the video shows that the issue is in OXS and even more in the software.

The reason why you 2 OXS does not act the same way is probably because they do not have the same sensors (baro/current) and/or the same config.

In order to proceed step by step, can you load the minimal config file (see previous post - take for sure care having the line "//#define VARIO" and not "#define VARIO") in one OXS (the one you want, it should not matter). Leave the OXS unconnected from the Rx and just look at the led.
Is it still irregular with sometime a delay of 1 sec or more between 2 blinkings. Best is to add a video so I can "evaluate" the blinking.

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Re: Introduction to the openx vario/altimeter

Post by MikeB » Sun Jul 13, 2014 5:00 pm

It looks as though openTx has dropped using any user timeout, except for when using a WSHowHi device. This does mean that if data from the hub input (serial) stops for any reason, then the Tx will simply keep reporting the last know values, with no indication they are no longer valid.

Mike.
erskyTx/er9x developer
The difficult we do immediately,
The impossible takes a little longer!


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