"Flip" button on Syma X1/WLToys v949

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Re: "Flip" button on Syma X1/WLToys v949

Post by jhitesma » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:55 am

I'm with Daryoon. I don't mind soldering SMT at all. But I'm horrible at sourcing components. But as long as the components aren't a huge deal to track down I'd love to build one.

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Re: "Flip" button on Syma X1/WLToys v949

Post by th9xer » Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:51 pm

Today's work. Board isn't routed yet, just drew/found all the footprints and 3d models.
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Re: "Flip" button on Syma X1/WLToys v949

Post by th9xer » Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:50 pm

Didn't take long to route. Have made a couple of pin changes I want to check back on the actual circuit, but first,,, bed.
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Re: "Flip" button on Syma X1/WLToys v949

Post by Daryoon » Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:23 am

Oh boy. You're making it look way too good. I'll have to take some high quality photos of it when I get mine! :) Don't you have a wedding to attend? Namely yours? ;)

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Re: "Flip" button on Syma X1/WLToys v949

Post by TheObstacle » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:00 am

Wow. That looks really nice.

Looks like I may have been a bit premature in ordering a couple of these: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/A7105-50 ... 01913.html :oops: Although if they aren't useful for this project I'm sure I can find something else to do with them.

Just out of curiosity, what software do you use for layout and modeling? Is it general purpose CAD, or something tailored for doing circuit layout?


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Re: "Flip" button on Syma X1/WLToys v949

Post by ShowMaster » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:26 pm

I'll try it! Sign me up.
SM


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Re: "Flip" button on Syma X1/WLToys v949

Post by phildoubleday » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:57 pm

That looks amazing! What software do you use?

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Re: "Flip" button on Syma X1/WLToys v949

Post by th9xer » Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:50 pm

Software is KiCAD, it's open source so free for all to use, once I get round to a Google Code page you will be able to get all the design files and give it a try.

It is worth pointing out that in the renderings only the circuit board on the bottom is my creation. The one on the top is from my original quadcopter transmitter, and this project will require that module from the original transmitter to work. It will no doubt work with any such A7105 module such as the ones you bought The Obstacle but the pinout may differ so you will just have to solder flying wires to your module. My PCB has provision for this.

For me I have no care for using the original transmitter and as it came free with my quadcopter it was a no brainer to disassemble it to use it's guts.

I imagine all the clones of this copter will have the same transmitter but I have uploaded some pics of mine so you can check. If you look close enough at pic 6720 you can see the pinout for the module on the main PCB silkscreen it is: SCS SCK SDIO GPIO GND 3.3v.

Wedding not till Friday, gotta do something called a speech now :)

Cam.
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Re: "Flip" button on Syma X1/WLToys v949

Post by TheObstacle » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:56 am

th9xer wrote:Software is KiCAD, it's open source so free for all to use, once I get round to a Google Code page you will be able to get all the design files and give it a try.

It is worth pointing out that in the renderings only the circuit board on the bottom is my creation. The one on the top is from my original quadcopter transmitter, and this project will require that module from the original transmitter to work. It will no doubt work with any such A7105 module such as the ones you bought The Obstacle but the pinout may differ so you will just have to solder flying wires to your module. My PCB has provision for this.
Ah, excellent. Wires I can do. :D The pinout on the ones I ordered (from the lousy pictures on aliexpress) seems to be: TXEN RXEN GIO2 GIO1 SDIO SCK GND SCS VCC, so it looks like they have all the right pins.

I see they also sell bare A7105 chips on aliexpress... if you wanted to do a really clean design and had a way to solder QFN4 packages, you could go native. ;)
th9xer wrote:I imagine all the clones of this copter will have the same transmitter but I have uploaded some pics of mine so you can check. If you look close enough at pic 6720 you can see the pinout for the module on the main PCB silkscreen it is: SCS SCK SDIO GPIO GND 3.3v.
The two transmitters I opened up when I was playing with the logic analyzer (that came with the Syma X-1 and WLToys V929) are a bit different from each other, but the modules in both looked _very_ similar to your pictures. The module layouts differed slightly (I think one had a trace antenna) and I don't recall the pinouts exactly, but it's likely they'll plug right in.

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Re: "Flip" button on Syma X1/WLToys v949

Post by th9xer » Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:34 am

I understand what you are saying with respect to including the A7105 etc on my module but I have a couple of problems. I am not sure I would trust myself to design the 2.4Ghz witch craft PCB let alone assemble it so it had any range, so I can't expect others to be able to manage it. Given the price of the modules and the trouble shooting they will save I don't think it's worth the extra complication. Plus you probably already have one for free with the model who's transmitter you are trying to replace.

You are right it would be the ultimate solution but "A man has to know his limitations" :)

If you get a chance to take the back off the transmitters you have it would be useful to know if the modules are the same or not. No sweat if not.

It will be interesting to see what the TXEN and RXEN pins do on the AliExpress modules as the A7105 doesn't seem to have pins for these on the IC. It's a software controlled function. Curious.
AliExpress also lists the module as "NRF24L01 + / CC2500/SI4432" they are all totally different transceiver IC's. Bit like buying a yellow (blue/green/orange) car. I guess if you buy a pair as they suggest you will be ok, otherwise it's gonna be interesting !

Cam.

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Re: "Flip" button on Syma X1/WLToys v949

Post by th9xer » Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:03 am

Re-reading the description they do mention A7105 more than the others, but still I think you will have to have the shielding can off for a look see inside.

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Re: "Flip" button on Syma X1/WLToys v949

Post by TheObstacle » Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:24 am

I think they put the other chip names in there so that the modules show up in searches for those other chips, to get more search hits. It's a cheap trick people use on eBay and other free-for-all markets. I'm pretty sure the actual chip in the module is an A7105.

This post by PhracturedBlue was what made me think ordering them might be a good idea.

I totally understand not wanting to worry about doing the layout for the RF section, using an existing module seems like a fine solution. Just having a bit of fun mentioning the bare chips. ;)
Last edited by TheObstacle on Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:03 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: "Flip" button on Syma X1/WLToys v949

Post by TheObstacle » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:20 am

Okay, got out the transmitters and busted them open. The one that came with the WLToys v929 seems to be pretty much identical to yours, so I'm sure they're re-branded versions of the same unit:
v929-1.JPG
v929-2.JPG
v929-3.JPG

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Re: "Flip" button on Syma X1/WLToys v949

Post by TheObstacle » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:23 am

The one that came with the Syma X1 has a trace antenna, and as far as I can tell the pins are not marked. I vaguely recall that the logic probe showed the signals on the same pins as the v929 one, so I suspect the pinout is the same, but I'd want to double-check that with the logic probe and/or scope before using the module from it.

Edit: in fact, looking at the traces in the pictures, it looks like the power and ground pins ( the two rightmost ones) may be swapped between the v929 and this one. Definitely need to use caution here...
symaX1-1.JPG
symaX1-2.JPG
symaX1-3.JPG
Last edited by TheObstacle on Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Flip" button on Syma X1/WLToys v949

Post by TheObstacle » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:30 am

The third one (bonus! ;) ) came with the HCW 553, a micro-sized quad (roughly the size of the QR ladybird or the WLToys v939) with a body shell that shrouds the props. Looks a bit like a micro-sized AR-drone.

I haven't ever put the logic analyzer on this one, but this quad also binds to the stock 9x. It's got the annoying feature that it won't stay bound -- every time you turn it on you need to put the 9x into bind mode and rebind it. This TX doesn't have a "flip" button at all, it just does automatic flips at full rate like the v929.
hcw553-1.JPG
hcw553-2.JPG
hcw553-3.JPG

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Re: "Flip" button on Syma X1/WLToys v949

Post by th9xer » Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:18 pm

All those interior Tx pics are gold, thanks for doing that. They all look suitable but as you pointed out the Syma one certainly looks like reverse polarity from looking at the PCB traces.

Your AliExpress module also looks a goer, it has already been used by a few people with deviation as you pointed out. Details are here:
http://www.deviationtx.com/repository/f ... rtdown/23/ Apologies for doubting you ! All you do is pull TXEN high to use it.

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Re: "Flip" button on Syma X1/WLToys v949

Post by jhitesma » Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:43 pm

So this RF module on ebay should be suitable?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/A7105-500m-wire ... 4607bf6bda

I've got the X1 and really using the RF board from the stock TX kind of defeats the whole reason I'm interested in this since the range on it is absolutely horrible (I have about enough range to fly inside the infield of a baseball diamond...maybe.) So I've been flying it with my 9x to get more range...but at the cost of the flip functionality which I'd like to get back.

Am I also understanding correctly that this will require a whole new firmware on the 9x and isn't based on er9x at all?

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Re: "Flip" button on Syma X1/WLToys v949

Post by th9xer » Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:03 am

I hadn't considered the range aspect of the upgrade at all and it wasn't the reason I started this. I simply wanted all my models on one Tx. That has been my sole motivation to this point. That said, it appears the module you linked will work with my hardware/software, and if the description is to be believed give you 500m range. I have not got one of these modules and therefore cannot make any guarantees, I am just going off other forum posts etc.

I am open to getting myself one of these if people agree this is going to be a "module of choice" ? I will however still support the module from the original transmitter for reasons previously stated. If supporting both is going to be tricky then you are going to have to convince me or put up with flying wires.

Your 9x transmitter won't require any mods at all, in fact you should be able to use this project on any modular transmitter. This project simply converts the normal transmitter PPM output into the clever SPI signal that the various A7105 modules use.

Cam.

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Re: "Flip" button on Syma X1/WLToys v949

Post by th9xer » Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:01 am

OK, the google code project is up:

http://code.google.com/p/rc-ppm-2-spi/

PCB files are there, all source code, it's an AVR Studio V4 project, and a PERL script for decoding Saleae logic SPI csv's into something more readable.

The code it beta-ish (as I have test flown it), the rest is alpha-ish.

Cam.

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Re: "Flip" button on Syma X1/WLToys v949

Post by TheObstacle » Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:02 am

Excellent! I've got the code checked out and threw together a fairly dumb Makefile to build it with avr-gcc from Crosskit (I don't do Windows, so AVR studio isn't on my short list. ;) ).

For some reason, I'd assumed you were going to do something to send digital data from the 9x to the module, like the DSM2 protocol in er9x/th9x. I've been looking at the code in setupPulsesDsm2 in pulses.cpp in the 9x source, and it looks to be sending serial data in N/8/1 over the PPM line to the module. If decoding that on the module side isn't too hard, we could repurpose some of that code and send whatever data we want.

Using PPM on the module is definitely more compatible with different radios, but going digital might allow for more flexibility with the 9x, like selecting Hubsan vs. Flysky protocols from the menus on the 9x in the same way you can select different DSM protocols, and doing the bind-on-trainer-switch trick that DSM uses instead of having to put a bind button on the module.

Of course, once you get the module built I can fiddle with the software on both ends myself and try some different things. I'm much better with software than I am with hardware. ;)

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Re: "Flip" button on Syma X1/WLToys v949

Post by th9xer » Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:43 pm

Excellent, makefiles were never my strong point. Not enough linux as a kid I guess :lol:

Your assumptions are correct Prof Moriarty, the unit is reading the PPM input signal from the transmitter, and I did that for compatibility with all transmitters. I hadn't considered any tighter integration with the 9x firmware but it is certainly worth keeping our options open, with that in mind I will make a couple of hardware changes.

Selecting protocol was one of the points I hadn't decided on yet, I was planning on using a high numbered channel and using it's position at switch on to dictate the protocol. Then ignoring it in case it accidentally gets flicked during flight.

I do wonder about the timing with DSM2 serial input and spi output, that little AVR is already pretty tight on timing. I do think we could play about with serial rate and frame frequency to get it workable however.

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Re: "Flip" button on Syma X1/WLToys v949

Post by th9xer » Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:20 pm

OK, I have ordered one for these modules mentioned by jhitesma http://www.ebay.com/itm/A7105-500m-wire ... 4607bf6bda if nothing else if looks like the biggest that will have to be accommodated, so there maybe a PCB rework after I receive it. Think I am just going to do a first batch of PCB's anyway before the module arrives, no doubt there will be other corrections to do.

Less than 24hours now, till "I do" !!

Cam.

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Re: "Flip" button on Syma X1/WLToys v949

Post by Kilrah » Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:24 pm

I have one of those I intend to use. Do you need the dimensions?

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Re: "Flip" button on Syma X1/WLToys v949

Post by th9xer » Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:54 pm

Yes thanks. Pinout pitch, pcb, and shielding can dimensions would be good so I can generate the 3D model.

While I have you Kilrah, I spotted your Hubsan X4 FPV video over on RCGroups, stunning !!!
I am guessing the Tx was something like this ? http://www.rangevideo.com/index.php?mai ... cts_id=304
And the camera like this ? http://www.aliexpress.com/item/New-Arri ... 70883.html

Cam.

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Re: "Flip" button on Syma X1/WLToys v949

Post by jhitesma » Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:27 pm

Having all my models on the same TX is a big goal, but with the X1 range is a serious issue - that little PCB trace antenna just doesn't cut it at all. But the lack of flip functionality in the 9X so far has made the 9x a less than idea TX for the X1 so far. I don't mind having to pick up another module and if I had something with one of the nicer modules in the TX I'd gladly strip it out to use :D

My big concern is the software side, since I'm still not fully clear on how this integrates with the existing (er9x/open9x) code most of us are running on their 9x. But the possiblity of having DMX, FlySky (with flip), and Devo all on the 9x has me really excited as there are a number of DMX/Devo models I've had my eyes on but have managed to resist buying because I didn't want to have to keep swapping a bunch of modules around to fly them all :) So one module that could do them all IS really exciting to me.

I don't have a wedding coming up in a few days but I have been incredibly busy so I haven't had time to fully inspect the code and get myself up to speed on how this fits together. Will have to spend a bit more time looking it over the next few days.

Hope your wedding goes well! Thanks to my crazy friend we hired as caterer I still hear friends talking about ours. Nothing like a caterer who looks like Ron Jeremy, polishes off 3 bottles of Jack Daniels before the reception starts, goes around demanding that people let him "put my meat in your mouth", and then halfway through cooking wanders off into the desert not to be heard from again for about 2 months. Thankfully he turned up ok and his wife and assistant did a great job finishing the cooking :D And our wedding left an indelible mark in our friends memories as a result too :D

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Re: "Flip" button on Syma X1/WLToys v949

Post by th9xer » Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:16 pm

Sorry to say but at least to start with this project is just going to be another module, not an all in one solution. Certainly no DSM/X or Devo support at the minute. It doesn't currently integrate with the 9x code in anyway because it doesn't need to. It's just like any other PPM module.

I am quite happy swapping modules, so the only benefit to me from this idea would be gaining Devo support, and currently no Devo models are on my list, so this feature is back of the list for me, sorry.

All this may come (space in the module case providing), but not to start with.

Thanks for the good wishes, I shall try and keep the staff off the Jack, good advice :D

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Re: "Flip" button on Syma X1/WLToys v949

Post by jhitesma » Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:25 pm

Swapping a module doesn't bother me as long as it also doesn't require reflashing the 9x firmware :D

That's where I was getting confused, I wasn't aware of or familiar with the deviation project you've been basing your work off of and apparently got mixed up thinking it involved a new firmware load on the TX itself as well as the module. So I'm glad to hear that the module is where the deviation derived code is going and not in the 9x if I'm now understanding correctly.

Like I said despite not having a wedding in my future I've been too swamped the past few weeks to investigate this as well as I'd like to :D

But am I correct in my understanding that the module would be capable of DSM and Devo as well - or would be looking at having to flash new firmware in the module to support that?

Wish I had more time to get up to speed on all this. I've started looking through the er9x code a few times but get in over my head pretty quickly and then distracted by other projects ;)

I think I've cleared up my misconceptions/misunderstandings now - the module you've designed will do the FlySky protocol with support for flip buttons - but won't require any changes to the 9x itself (either hardware or firmware) just swapping the module.

Oh and just to be clear I LOVE what you've done so far and am not in any way trying to complain or put it down or pester for more features :) Just trying to get things clear in my head about where it all fits together ;)

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Re: "Flip" button on Syma X1/WLToys v949

Post by th9xer » Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:44 pm

Hmm on the subject of Devo and DSM/X anyone spotted a cyrf6936 module ? Can find the IC's but not any modules.

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Re: "Flip" button on Syma X1/WLToys v949

Post by th9xer » Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:07 pm

All understood jhitesma, no bad feelings here, no pestering or complaining felt, as you were.

I understand now the confusion with respect to 9x firmware integration. Yes you are right I have just pinched bits of devo code and used it in my totally separate module.

More bad news though, the devo and DSM/X protocols use a different transceiver IC, they use the Cypress CYRF6939. FlySky, and Hubsan use the A7105. The two aren't compatible as I understand it. So any conversion unit (such as the one I am building) would need both a CYRF6939 and a A7105 module connected to it to control everything.

The Devo transmitters come as stock with a CYRF6939 in them. Hence they can control Devo and DSMX stuff with only a firmware tweak. My module (at least so far) only has an A7105 transceiver so no Devo or DSM/X support. I am not adverse to adding this, but it won't be in mkI, and there are two small problems: 1) It might be tricky to get both a CYRF6939 and an A7105 module in the same case. 2) I am struggling to find a source of CYRF6939 modules.

Clear as mud now ? :D

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Re: "Flip" button on Syma X1/WLToys v949

Post by th9xer » Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:11 pm

Hmm problem 2) sorted. See here viewtopic.php?f=5&t=362 and here http://www.ehirobo.com/shop/product_inf ... s_id=11530

I'll order one for a try.

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