er9x development

[andrewju]

Hmm... It's always a battle between safety and usability. I guess the next cycle of improvements will be to replace the popups with some kind of shortcuts in order to speed up navigation and simplify access to different options... But in order to get there we first have to go through the route of adding popups for each and every action...

[bob195558]

For my two cents: I like this new user friendly/menu system.
I am and have been frustrated with long/short button press.
It always seem to take 5 to 6 times of going around in-order make a single setting change, until I get
the timing correct of how not to press-hold the button to long and being exited somewhere I not want to be.
I try to do the model eeprom programing with eePe/eePeSky so that it takes away the frustrations.
Long/short button press could go away for my two cents.

Bob B.

[jhsa]

Hmm... It's always a battle between safety and usability.

I would ALWAYS put the safety first.. But you want more usability and user friendliness than what the menus offer currently?
pretend you are completely new to the firmware, and you don't have a good manual as it was the case before.. now try to navigate the firmware with lots of long and short presses to remember.. Oh, yes, you don't even know them for a start..

Now still pretending you are new to the firmware, without a manual, try to go wherever you want with the current menu system.. exactly, much easier because the radio tells you where all the menus are. And the options are organized and not cluttered as before.. So, talking about user friendliness?? for whom? that is question.. For everybody (new system), or only for some geeks like us? (having to remember key presses).

I guess the next cycle of improvements will be to replace the popups with some kind of shortcuts in order to speed up navigation and simplify access to different options... But in order to get there we first have to go through the route of adding popups for each and every action...

I don't think so, but maybe voice activated? who knows.. press a key, say the name of the menu you want to go.. Maybe voice recognition is the future.. I know some of the steps towards that were already done.. And if you search this forum you will find it. But then you will have to know the names of the menus


@Bob
I think we're getting old Bob.. We can't remember all the key presses anymore.

[ReSt]

As a disclaimer, I'm not critizising but trying to make suggestions.
And I'm not up to date with the latest testversions, but bound to the last officially released version 816 and I know, part of what I describe is already working.


If we should no longer have to use short and long presses wouldn't that mean:

1. cycle within the system screens with "up/down" for the different contents and "left/right" for the channel block 1-8 and 9 - 16 (but from my point of view not the telemetry screens)

2. Press menu for a popup menu with selections:
Model setup index
Radio setup index
Telemetry
Statistics

3. return from the popup with "Exit" or timeout

4. in the index menus select a function menu with "up/down/left/right" and jump to it with "Menu".

5. From the selected pages return with "Exit" to the appropriate index menu where you may select another function or return with "Exit" to the system screens.

7. in the telemetry and statistics screens cycle with "up/down" for consistency (or left/right) and leave with "Exit"

6. No cross jumping and no multiple ways to select a function/menu should be allowed because that is what I find confusing. (My 2 cents).

That way, you have not to remember different key presses and have a clearly stuctered menu structure.

But what about the Key[long] presses to get Gvars displayed as an input option ??

There should also be a better solution. Probably one more inputfield that lets you decide if for the next field you want to use a number .... or a GVAR ?


And once more, I'm not critizising but trying to make suggestions.

Reinhard

[jhsa]

If we should no longer have to use short and long presses wouldn't that mean:

1. cycle within the system screens with "up/down" for the different contents and "left/right" for the channel block 1-8 and 9 - 16 (but from my point of view not the telemetry screens)

2. Press menu for a popup menu with selections:
Model setup index
Radio setup index
Telemetry
Statistics

3. return from the popup with "Exit" or timeout

4. in the index menus select a function menu with "up/down/left/right" and jump to it with "Menu".

5. From the selected pages return with "Exit" to the appropriate index menu where you may select another function or return with "Exit" to the system screens.

7. in the telemetry and statistics screens cycle with "up/down" for consistency (or left/right) and leave with "Exit"

6. No cross jumping and no multiple ways to select a function/menu should be allowed because that is what I find confusing. (My 2 cents).

That way, you have not to remember different key presses and have a clearly stuctered menu structure.

This is all more or less how it works at the moment.. You didn't say where the model select menu is.. We have it in the popup and I personally think that is where it should be.

But what about the Key[long] presses to get Gvars displayed as an input option ??

There should also be a better solution. Probably one more inputfield that lets you decide if for the next field you want to use a number .... or a GVAR ?

depends on which field. On the mixer is one of the fields I would like to see a popup as you have different categories of inputs.. GVARs, Scalers, Switches, Channels, etc. But I don't know if in this case would make it easier, or if it is even possible to do it.
If where there are only numbers or GVARs, I think that doesn't justify a popup. If there were more options, maybe.
Also with only 2 options (numbers and GVARs), for example the dual rate/expo screen. With the keys only, up and down to navigate to the field, right and left to edit the value, menu to bring a popup and ask about numbers or GVARs
With encoder, the same edition is not possible because you navigate to the field with the wheel, but have to press center button or menu to edit. So the popup would have to be called with center or menu long, which is what we have now.. So, for only changing from numbers to gvars we will have to live with the menu long..
And this is editing anyway.. not navigating the menus which is what we were talking about earlier.. Those are two different things.

[andrewju]

I would ALWAYS put the safety first..

But any safety should be reasonable. If one wants a perfect safety - he will probably only fly a simulator.

But you want more usability and user friendliness than what the menus offer currently?

Well, I had a concern on one of the usability items. It looks like I'm not the only one concerned with this issue, but the solutions discussed so far are in favor of removing this feature for good, rather than improving or leaving it as is.
I already feel I shouldn't have raised this question at all...

pretend you are completely new to the firmware, and you don't have a good manual as it was the case before.. now try to navigate the firmware with lots of long and short presses to remember.. Oh, yes, you don't even know them for a start..

Yes, if you're new to something and you didn't read the manual for any reason - you try to navigate it once or twice and then you learn your way through it. Or you decide this is too complex for you and move on to something else. Not perfect - yes, I agree. There's no perfect solution for everybody.

Now still pretending you are new to the firmware, without a manual, try to go wherever you want with the current menu system.. exactly, much easier because the radio tells you where all the menus are. And the options are organized and not cluttered as before.. So, talking about user friendliness?? for whom? that is question.. For everybody (new system), or only for some geeks like us? (having to remember key presses).

Sure, the newbie will probably like the menus and hints... But many newbies will quickly become familiar with all the menus. And some of them will become geeks and will start looking for a way to make the navigation quicker - by using shortcuts and avoiding (some of the) menus...

And here we come to the idea of two levels of users - the "PROs" and the "Newbies" - who should probably have different interfaces. But I guess that would be too tight for an m64...

I don't think so, but maybe voice activated? who knows.. press a key, say the name of the menu you want to go.. Maybe voice recognition is the future.. I know some of the steps towards that were already done.. And if you search this forum you will find it. But then you will have to know the names of the menus

Well, voice-operated control has its own downsides. I personally would not want it on my radio. But as I said before, I'm very conservative when it comes to user interfaces...

[jhsa]

Well, the way it currently is, everybody can navigate the menus easily. Before it wasn't the case.. I don't consider myself a beginner and I had problems with remembering the key presses before, and always overshooting the menus..
It seems I am also not the only one..
I also believe there are no reasonable compromises in safety, and certainly not when you could press a button with the palm of your hand and edit a general setting..

About the manual, there wasn't a decent up to date one before, so reading it or not it was the same.
I personally think that the menus are great the way they are, many people here and on RCG already said they are very happy with them, and I think Mike's idea to have an option to disable entering the menus with the directional keys is a very good idea.. I personally don't want to have the chance of entering the index menu with the palm of my hand.. I just tried it again and it is in fact very easy, at least if you have the encoder with the really soft keys.

Also, the m64 currently has nearly the same features as the other boards.. As far as I know, that was only possible due to the flash savings Mike did when improving the menu system. That includes, scalers, voice/alarms menus, etc..

João

[andrewju]

Oh, please don't get me wrong! All the recent changes to the menu of er9x and flash savings together with new features are really great! And I find the new er9x menu very well thought of and convenient to use, despite my attempts to argue about it in the past. I highly respect Mike's and everybody's efforts to make er9x even better!

So I apologize if my messages seemed too criticizing - this wasn't my intent.

[jhsa]

No need for apologizing. That is no criticism
But everybody have different ideas.. You would like a different way to navigate the menus, ReSt like his own way.. Fortunately he can do some coding and change it to his likes, others would prefer the hard way, only with remembering the key combinations (Geek way). Me I prefer the really easy way we have now. It might mean one or two more clicks sometimes, but so what? I'm not lazy (don't ask my wife ) so one click in exchange of a very organized firmware is well worth it..

I would never use Linux until very recently, only because the user interface got much better.. I remember having to edit some code to calibrate a joystick.. Yes, I had to insert the calibration values manually
Some people obviously like it that way
At the end of the day, there will be always someone that like things done completely the other way. Either way, you just can't win..

João

[KAL]

Just the same ev'rywhere: 5 people - 6 opinions
Or as a buddy says: "My cat eats mice raw, I don't even like them cooked!"

Klaus

[andrewju]

Oh... I have to admit I don't like recent interface changes in Linux. Same goes for Windows as well.
I'd happily stay with WinXP (or with CentOS 6) on my working machine if I wasn't forced to move to something newer...

Either way, you just can't win.

So true!

"My cat eats mice raw, I don't even like them cooked!"

LOL!

[jhsa]

Just the same ev'rywhere: 5 people - 6 opinions
Or as a buddy says: "My cat eats mice raw, I don't even like them cooked!"

Klaus

What about cats?

By the way, I think windows 7 user interface in general is better than XP
Linux got much better, but it is... how should say, archaic??
Ubuntu studio is very easy to use with audio though.. and powerful..
João

[MikeB]

I'm looking to add the feature of changing one (maybe more) of the two position switches to a 3-position switch. The extra signal required will be part of the new, serial control of the Megasound board. As part of this, there will be a new hardware option where you specify if a switch has been changed.
These menu entries take up flash space, and, as is probably generally known, the FrSky version of the firmware running on the M64 board doesn't have much spare flash space.

So my question is, how bad would it be if you HAD to use eepe to set this sort of hardware option on the M64-frsky version, and couldn't do it directly on the radio?

Mike.

[OctavioS]

So my question is, how bad would it be if you HAD to use eepe to set this sort of hardware option on the M64-frsky version, and couldn't do it directly on the radio?
Mike.

Although i thing this is unnecessary, i have a question which is: you change the option in eepe and then you flash the radio, right? Once you change it, it keeps like that permanently, i assume? everytime i flash a new version do i have to change this option in eepe before flashing?
thx!

[LTMNO]

Hi Mike, its been a while but I thought i would add my .02 cents.
I think more 3 pos switches are a great idea.
I think having to use eepe to make that happy for stock chip is a small price to pay to acquire the feature.
again, this is coming from someone that has the m128 chip.

[jhsa]

Guys, this is not a setting you change every day.. This is hardware related, so once done it is permanent.. Mike's idea is very good on having this setting only in eepe for the m64. You keep your eeprom saved on the computer.. Another advantage is that you don't mess your settings while playing with the radio.
At least one more 3 way switch is very very very welcome. For me 3 of those is too much, 1 is not enough.. 2 is great.

João

[Daedalus66]

My feelings exactly!

[OctavioS]

Guys, this is not a setting you change every day.. This is hardware related, so once done it is permanent.. Mike's idea is very good on having this setting only in eepe for the m64. You keep your eeprom saved on the computer.. Another advantage is that you don't mess your settings while playing with the radio.
At least one more 3 way switch is very very very welcome. For me 3 of those is too much, 1 is not enough.. 2 is great.

João

I assume that if you want to activate the option, you do it in eepe and then flash. and have to do it every time you update with new firmware?

[jhsa]

I don't need to flash the eeprom every time i flash the tx because I have the fuses set not to erase the eeprom when flashing. But still if you have to configure your radio completely every time you flash your radio, then you are not doing it right.
The right procedure is:

Download your eeprom into eepe before flashing new firmware and save it to your computer.
Then flash the tx.
Next flash your eeprom back to the tx. Done.
You have a copy of the eeprom saved in case something goes wrong.

João

[OctavioS]

I don't need to flash the eeprom every time i flash the tx because I have the fuses set not to erase the eeprom when flashing. But still if you have to configure your radio completely every time you flash your radio, then you are not doing it right.
The right procedure is:

Download your eeprom into eepe before flashing new firmware and save it to your computer.
Then flash the tx.
Next flash your eeprom back to the tx. Done.
You have a copy of the eeprom saved in case something goes wrong.

João

thx for info.

[andrewju]

There are some (quite a lot of...) people who do not use eePe at all. They flash their radio once and are happy with the firmware they got. I can judge based on the number of people coming to me and asking for help to reflash their radio. Many of them don't want to mess with USBasp or other kind of programmers. They just want to get an er9x and then set their models up in the radio itself.

But I think even they will not suffer from not having this option in the radio settings - because they will not need it. And once they decide to go for another 3-POS switch - they will likely have to ask for someone's support anyway due to lack of soldering skills or for whatever other reason.

So the idea to have some hardware-related options configurable only via eePe is perfectly fine with me!

Though, I'm on an m2561...

[flybabo]

IMHO, ALL the hardware related settings should go to eepe regardless of the processor types.
I don't see much benefit on menu-based hardware setting as it's used only once
right after altering the hardware and prone to operator error while playing with the menus.

[jhsa]

I think the hardware menu should be hidden, and made available by pressing some pre defined keys together, like we do to enter bootloader mode. Turning the radio off and on again should hide it again.. Maybe even a combination of keys at startup, and the radio would start in the hardware menu. Long exit, or reboot would start the radio normally..
Stick reverse should of course be moved to the hardware menu. Mode should obviously stay on the controls as you might want to lend the radio to someone else that fly on a different mode.
As posted above, there are many people that don't use eepe at all..
Mike, wouldn't you save flash by hidding the hardware menu when the radio is operating normally?
João

[MikeB]

Since I'm going to have to move all the projects over to GitHub, I think I shall create ONE new project, maybe called MBTX, and have all of er9x, ersky9x, eepe and eepskye in directories in that.

Mike.

[ReSt]

Is it possible for you to put one final version of ER9x onto Google Code?

As with Github I simply never know what I'm really downloading.

Reinhard

[MikeB]

Yes I'll do that.

Mike.

[jhsa]

It looks like I will have to write a new manual?

[andrewju]

Mike, what's the reason to move to Github?
(I'm just curious...)

[Kilrah]

Googlecode is closing.

[jhsa]

Google code is closing down..

João