Master stick movement overrides student ..

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jhsa
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Master stick movement overrides student ..

Post by jhsa » Wed May 29, 2013 7:57 pm

Just had this idea.. don't know if it is possible or not but here it goes..
Imagine you are teaching someone to fly.. he/she makes a mistake. Normally you release the trainer switch and take control..
what if you only need to flick the trainer switch once, only to give control, but if the student makes a mistake you just need to move your sticks and start flying the aircraft and the master radio automatically takes control. to give control back just turn trainer on and release it again..

Is this a crazy idea?? ;)

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Re: Master stick movement overrides student ..

Post by Kilrah » Wed May 29, 2013 8:07 pm

Easy to do with a few custom switches :)

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Re: Master stick movement overrides student ..

Post by Rob Thomson » Wed May 29, 2013 8:08 pm

Already does that :)
You can set the mode in the trainer screen.

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Re: Master stick movement overrides student ..

Post by ShowMaster » Wed May 29, 2013 8:11 pm

Doesn't the add option allow full time correction when turned on? I played with that on the bench and it seemed to be a good feature. Usually we're trying to correct for late or wrong way or over correction. Usually it's minor if the student has any basic skills.
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Re: Master stick movement overrides student ..

Post by Kilrah » Wed May 29, 2013 8:12 pm

Yes but with the Add option the student can still affect stuff when you're trying to fly the plane yourself... the "shut up now" option could be a good idea.
Of course the guy listening to what you tell him to do is the best option.


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Re: Master stick movement overrides student ..

Post by jhsa » Wed May 29, 2013 8:15 pm

I'm not speaking about the add function.. I mean REPLACE. You see, some people think they can fly and would keep trying to fly the aircraft after you said You had control..
But if it's not worth it it's ok.. It was just an idea anyway ;)

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Re: Master stick movement overrides student ..

Post by Kilrah » Wed May 29, 2013 8:20 pm

jhsa wrote:I'm not speaking about the add function.. I mean REPLACE. You see, some people think they can fly and would keep trying to fly the aircraft after you said You had control..
Then this is already a bit later and you'll have had the time to turn trainer off ;)

But as said - can be done with custom switches already.

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Re: Master stick movement overrides student ..

Post by jhsa » Wed May 29, 2013 8:23 pm

It would be interesting to know how then ;)
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Re: Master stick movement overrides student ..

Post by Kilrah » Wed May 29, 2013 8:37 pm

Figure it out, good programming challenge :D

I'm talking of openTx of course.

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Re: Master stick movement overrides student ..

Post by jhsa » Wed May 29, 2013 8:54 pm

Come on, many of us don't know how to do it.. ;)
Hmmm, like that I believe it is not possible.. not even with custom switches.. Did I find something the custom firmwares can't do ? :mrgreen:

Actually, I can't think of a way of doing it, that's why I came up with this idea.. If it is possible then please, someone show us :D

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Re: Master stick movement overrides student ..

Post by Kilrah » Wed May 29, 2013 9:00 pm

See that...
It's an example, you could use just one channel with 4 mixers and save 6 of the custom switches.
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Re: Master stick movement overrides student ..

Post by G550Ted » Wed May 29, 2013 9:38 pm

You are quite the tease tonight! I took a look at the example you attached but am not good enough to improve it per your hint. I think this programming feature has a lot of merit and would like to see the streamlined version become a "Sticky Trainer" template. How about it?

Ted

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Re: Master stick movement overrides student ..

Post by jhsa » Wed May 29, 2013 9:42 pm

Very good.. so we just use !CH16 on the trainer menu, right? to give control..
I might try this just for fun..
And invite one of my friends that use expensive radios for helping me test the system ;) :mrgreen:

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P.S. - Still think we should have something like this hardcoded.. custom switches are very precious and might be needed for other more important things on the aircraft ;)
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Re: Master stick movement overrides student ..

Post by jhsa » Wed May 29, 2013 9:45 pm

Kilrah wrote:you could use just one channel with 4 mixers and save 6 of the custom switches.
Yeah, would you mind to explain to us mortals what you mean? Don't understand what you suggest.. I do like the toggle effect with the trainer switch

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Re: Master stick movement overrides student ..

Post by Kilrah » Wed May 29, 2013 9:45 pm

Giving control is already there, in the custom functions. As said you can use only 2 CS.

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Re: Master stick movement overrides student ..

Post by Flaps 30 » Wed May 29, 2013 9:55 pm

Image

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Re: Master stick movement overrides student ..

Post by MikeB » Wed May 29, 2013 9:57 pm

I would say if you are teaching someone to fly, you probably won't need that many custom switches for that model, so using some for a fancy trainer mode shouldn't be a problem.
Hard coding it will use up flash, using custom switches won't.

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Re: Master stick movement overrides student ..

Post by ShowMaster » Wed May 29, 2013 10:26 pm

My experience in teaching many is that taking away all control and giving it back may not be always the best. In the beginning flights I'm usually talking them through simple turns and teaching to NOT push hard forward to lower their altitude but instead reduce motor speed or a gentle push down (forward),
I like the idea of added override on the trainer switch and total override if toggled. That way I can talk them through over correction as I make corrections, or take total control.
I'm going to give my theory a try.
The idea is to let them know I'm helping with the correction not just take it away.
Because of so many video games now, I get new flyers good at the sticks but the games usually require hard "bangs" of the sticks In all directions to kill things. So that's how the treat the tx sticks, hard over for everything. My/our job is to reprogram them to fly with gentle stick movements and not use their killing stick moves on their planes.
20+ years ago many had never used a joystick unlike today so the first flights were starting form scratch.
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Re: Master stick movement overrides student ..

Post by jhsa » Wed May 29, 2013 11:16 pm

Well one of the reasons I started this thread is because
1 - I don't like to be holding the trainer switch all the time. I know, I'm lazy. But i was born like that and can't do anything about it :mrgreen:
2 - I've been using the RUD switch but I found myself with my finger always on the switch, ready for action ;)
3 - If we don't have to flick a switch to take control we might gain some precious time on those cases where we don't have hardly any time to react :)
We can still help by talking of course, but imagine you are teaching landings. near the ground you might not have time to flick a switch, so if something goes wrong, you just have to correct it and not waste any time trying to flick the switch. and then swear at him after :D but the plane will still be ready for another lesson ;)
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Re: Master stick movement overrides student ..

Post by gohsthb » Thu May 30, 2013 2:21 am

When I set up my system for this. We have days where we let anyone try to fly. I set the rate on the trainer screen to 75%. This makes it a little easier for the student pilot to fly, and even with the sticks set on add I still override their control input. And really if they are doing that bad I need to flick the switch to turn their control off anyway.
What you suggest won't work for me. I still move the sticks around being ready to take over control, while the student is flying.
-Gohst

Since Kilrah isn't feeling helpful today here you go jhsa. :lol: :lol:
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Re: Master stick movement overrides student ..

Post by G550Ted » Thu May 30, 2013 2:31 pm

gohsthb wrote:When I set up my system for this. We have days where we let anyone try to fly. I set the rate on the trainer screen to 75%. This makes it a little easier for the student pilot to fly, and even with the sticks set on add I still override their control input. And really if they are doing that bad I need to flick the switch to turn their control off anyway.
What you suggest won't work for me. I still move the sticks around being ready to take over control, while the student is flying.
-Gohst

Since Kilrah isn't feeling helpful today here you go jhsa. :lol: :lol:
Thanx for the .eepe gohsthb! :ugeek:

I have a couple of questions about programming in general that I don't understand in this setup and would appreciate any assistance with my education here.

It appears that despite either mode or channel order setup selected in General Settings, the PPM order is AETR. Is that correct? If so what is the PPM order for the remaining PPM out? Are they the result of the student radio setup?

What is the logic of CS4 and CS5? Also, the AND in the CSB line?

Ted

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Re: Master stick movement overrides student ..

Post by jhsa » Thu May 30, 2013 2:48 pm

Gohst, that works good thanks.. The only problem (maybe not a problem) I see is when you hit the TRN switch it sends the throttle channel to half throttle.. Is it meant to work that way?

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Re: Master stick movement overrides student ..

Post by gohsthb » Thu May 30, 2013 3:05 pm

Jhsa, In eepe there is no ppm input so all of those are at 0, or midstick. It should work in a transmitter. Also note this doesn't use the trainer menu, I just sorta threw this together, it might be a good exercize for someone to convert it for that. Hint: use SWC as the switch in the trainer menu.

Ted,
There are 3 conditions that take control away from the student with my setup. Movement on the instructors AIL, ELE, or RUD. That is what the first 3 switches are looking for. Then I needed to boil that down to a single switch that triggered if any of them were true. So if AIL "OR" RUD "OR" ELE is moved the switch turns on. Other than that I used the sticky throttle cut template so the trainer switch can be flicked and the condition will hold. The and switch on CSB is just a leftover, you can ignore it. The PPM stream is determined by the order you have the mixes in. So the output from mine (in mode 2 of course) will be Rud, Ele, Thr, Ail. The input stream is determined by the student Tx. If it is another Tx running custom firmware it can be whatever you want it to be, it works like above. If it is a JR/Spektrum Tx then you will get Thr, Ele, Ail, Rud. And for a Futaba Tx you would get Ail, Ele, Thr, Rud.

-Gohst

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Re: Master stick movement overrides student ..

Post by ShowMaster » Thu May 30, 2013 3:32 pm

My training program is to have a short ground school about what the sticks so and what's up and down. Many think that the tx case top should be pointed at the sky and that's what up is. It takes a little discussion to hold the tx more horizontal and learn that down is forward towards the handle and up is back towards the stomach.
Then we try a flight with the buddy box setup to swap all control between the instructor and student. If the student actually is a natural at it or does well enough to not scare either of us, that's where I think I'd like go try the add mode.
Landings are scary for both of us the first few times. Usually they think gnat to land you must jam the stick forward and do a lawn dart dig in the nose landing?
That's why we practice slow speed flare runs at a safe altitude before we go for a real landing.
If anything limiting the down throw on a switch for landings may prevent the lawn dart landing.
Maybe not here but I think a instructor topic may be a good thing so we can share our ideas on how to best teach now that we have do many advanced options we didn't have in the last.
Even how to best use the new flight stabilizers on the market for training.
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Re: Master stick movement overrides student ..

Post by jhsa » Thu May 30, 2013 3:36 pm

yeah, i realised that a bit after. My brain was having a bad moment I guess ;) I think we can use the C.switch on the trainer menu. Again, i alert to the possibility of losing control if we forget to turn trainer off. But in this case we will gain control again as soon as we move a stick.
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Confusion

Post by G550Ted » Thu May 30, 2013 8:52 pm

In er9x I tried to configure the trainer menu using SWC but got weird results. After selecting the trainer switch in the simulator, the switch assignment in the trainer menu gets changed to !SW2... :o If I use another CSwitch instead of SWC the value in the trainer menu gets changes to some other !SW(x) value.

Methinks there is something else in play with the trainer function which I certainly don't understand.

My attempt is in this .eepe as model2 "Trainer"

Ted
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Re: Master stick movement overrides student ..

Post by MikeB » Thu May 30, 2013 9:44 pm

There is a problem with eepe, and in fact with er9x/ersky9x. For reasons to limit the amount of EEPROM used (I guess, I think Bertrand added this originally) only 5 bits are allocated to store the trainer switch. This means you should only be able to use up to SW6 (or down to !SW6). The code in eepe (and er9x) allows you to try to go beyond this, but wraps the result back into the 5 bits available, thus changing the entered value. Fixes for this are now in place ready for the next revision(s).
Since these values are in the general data, not model specific, they probably don't need to be as limiting as they are. The problem is it would still be an EEPROM change if I change them.

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Re: Master stick movement overrides student ..

Post by jhsa » Thu May 30, 2013 9:51 pm

Mike, I have no idea of the work needed for an eeprom change, but there are some stuff features already waiting for an eeprom change.. It's not the first time that we all here discuss about it. Maybe it is time for it to happen? I mean, the way I see it looks like it is inevitable sooner or later..
What do you think?

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Re: Master stick movement overrides student ..

Post by MikeB » Thu May 30, 2013 10:23 pm

I'm not sure either. I would need to make eepe detect saved models are an old version and automatically update them IF the flashed version of er9x needs it done. At some point Erazz removed the version number from the model data so I would need to put that back in. I'll need to find time to make a list of things that should be changed.

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Re: Master stick movement overrides student ..

Post by jhsa » Thu May 30, 2013 10:46 pm

I still remember the last eeprom change in er9x.. If I'm not mistaken eepe (or the tx) displayed some kind of warning about it.. But I think there were no problems
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