Turnigy 9x ban at local club

[maninvan]

I've just heard that at my local club they want to ban the use of the Turnigy TH9x. They have had some members lose models due to loss of connection. AFAIU they are using the stock RF module.
I wonder if people can help me support a rejection of the proposal, or a modified version where they are using a FrSky or other module.
I really like my TH9x with FrSky module running Open9x and to be banned from using it seems excessive.
Any help in links to info for and against would be great.... Thx

[ShowMaster]

Where is this club located?
SM


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[maninvan]

The club is in Canada.

[Rob Thomson]

By all means..... Ban the rf system.

But don't ban the radio. If you can change the rf system, then the issue is resolved.

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[bertrand35]

12 years ago my hand soldered Thobois radio was banned in my club, the president was selling Futaba in his local shop. I know how you feel ... I never had a glitch with the FrSky module installed in place of the original one.

[jhsa]

one day they will ban it at my club because I keep saying that ip better than their Futabas. . I know, it's not funny...

[G550Ted]

Stupid decision to consider such a ban. I would suspect some underlying prejudicial motive. I have found the FlySky system to be quite robust without ever personally experiencing a glitch or loss of signal. I also don't know of any issues with anyone else using the system, with one exception. That was when one person attempted a flight with a crash damaged receiver where the damage to the antenna was obvious and with a resulting signal loss at about 50 meters. Additionally, my experience with the 9x radio also includes using Corona and Spektrum DM-9 module/Orange receivers as well as Fly Sky. Now, losses at my club with high dollar Spektrum gear is another story!

Were the incidents at your local club investigated to accurately determine their cause, or is this just a knee-jerk reaction? Were range checks performed prior to flight of those incidents? For a good technical analysis you could view this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sexp2iKWz0g

Despite the RF system used, there is only one inherently deficient issue with 9x transmitters. That is the well known problem with the stock battery holder which could be the cause of the losses you cite. You might want to direct an investigation there.

Ted

[Flaps 30]

How many members have had a loss of connection, and what was the outcome of the investigations after the events? .. Were the 9X's in question all stock radios using the 8 cell battery holders?

Any club considering a ban on one particular brand or model number, in my mind have to justify that by facts and those facts also have to include failures of other radio equipment of different brands in the equation. Even the best/most expensive ones have problems at times. I have seen poor installations of batteries and other radio kit that has left a lot to be desired. That includes a lot of cheap and nasty servo connectors that are used from the battery to the receiver that fall apart at the slightest touch, along with offering virtually no current carrying capacity which has lead to a radio failure. We have had that happen twice at our club. There is so much that can go wrong, and it isn't getting better as more complex kit is being added.

[jhsa]

Any club considering a ban on one particular brand or model number, in my mind have to justify that by facts and those facts also have to include failures of other radio equipment of different brands in the equation.

Do they? at my club the president decided to ban FPV and when we ask why he say "because I want to"
If you're not happy you can go.. Let me say that it is difficult to get a place in a club around here. My club is only limited to 50 of us and it is full..
What happens now is that the people go and fly FPV in parks and other places where it could be dangerous to people and property instead of the safety of our field.. Also the insurance might not cover any damage..
When I confronted the president with this he simply said.. "I don't care, it's their problem"
I mean, I'm not interested in FPV but I think it would be safer for them to fly at the field. with some rules of course..
I also better start keeping my mouth shut about my radio or one day will happen the same to me here. the other day I made the mistake of saying that the software in my radio is 10 times better than the new futaba. and gave them only a little example. make the lights blink on your planes using only your radio like I have on my tricopter.. Or make a full retracts /door bay coordinated programming using delay for the different doors to add realism.. let me tell ya, they didn't like it and started saying that my radio is ridiculous because I can programm sounds saying flaps down or gear down.,. I just said, it might be ridiculous for you but I like it and I do it because I can.. yours can't.. that really peeed them off

So I better watch it or my radio might be banned as well, or me... or both..

João

[gohsthb]

This is the same as banning pit bulls. It more comes down to owner responsibility. "Check your plane, check your equipment, check your attitude. " is my clubs safety motto.
-Gohst

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[Rob Thomson]

Personally..... If I was in a club, and they had a president like that... I would probably leave the club

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[jhsa]

yes and then you don't find place in any other club.. it's all pretty much full around here.. and the field is 5 minutes driving from my house..

[Flaps 30]

Assuming that the club in question was one that is democratic that has a committee and the like. I would hope that there was enough there to vote against a ban. Having said that. I know a few model clubs that are not run on such lines, as the big noises in the club either have a financial stake in the flying site, that gives them total power as to what happens at the site, or that the club is so full of itself that it requires you to be invited into the club and even then you have to go through some ridiculous hoops to become a member. One club I'm thinking of is no more than twenty miles from me fits into that category. You couldn't pay me to join them!

Off topic - João. FPV and the way that it seems to going, along with some pretty negative press coverage stateside, will probably see things tightened up a hell of a lot more than what it is now. So yes I can see why a lot of clubs do not allow such activities, especially if the site in use is open to the public or is close to buildings or homes.

I would like to hear more as to how many people in the club in question has had radio contact problems that were verified to be radio orientated, and not due to pilot errors or poor installations. In a way I can understand why they might be wary of the 9X as so many (as has been reported in this group) have had major faults or potential problems that might bite in the future. Poor pots, bad soldering, water damage trapped wires and faulty switches are just a few things that come to mind with sets that have come straight out of the box, and that is before they get messed around with by people with what may be very limited/poor electronic skills, that go to make matters worse.

So yes. There is probably some case to be answered as to the reliability/quality of the radio when compared against the rest.

How long will it be before insurance companies insist on you only using type approved equipment and aircraft (no home made or modified kits) for flying and with that the clubs following the same lines.. I just feel we are heading that way with clubs and organisations. So the lone uninsured flyer will be the only way for a lot of people.

[maninvan]

Thank you for all the replies.

I need to find out the specifics of what went wrong in individual cases, but i think I maybe able to persuade them that the following needs to happen

1. Visual inspection of new members radio installations to make sure they are optimal for antenna placement.
2. Range Checks: I think persons at the field are not doing this to confirm everything is OK.

If that doesn't fly, so to speak, they should just ban the module in the back. it doesn't have a failsafe mechanism. FrSky modified unit should be exempted.

I do think that some of the reliability issues is down to people not treating a $60 unit as carefully as $400 dollar unit. This leads to overly stressed gimbals and broken switches.

I agree with the sentiments in that if they ban a hobby radio, does that mean they will ban scratch built planes. Why is 'Made by someone else" more reliable than homemade?

[ShowMaster]

I didn't know "any elected president" has that kind of power power to actually ban equipment? What about the clubs other board members and a vote by its members after any pro or con arguments are presented.

Granted that with the influx of new inexpensive 2.4 equipment from China we all at risk of losing control. Many think 2.4 can't fail not knowing anything about the technology, but we all know it can!
Many systems don't "hop" and that as well as many without failsafe are already more prone to loss of link, or runaway loss of control if the link fails.
Fact is that DSM2 is in fact flawed and susceptible to link loss of control, proven in many Spectrum analyzer tests when the band is saturated. No DSM2 owner will accept that and keeps flying it in close proximity to other flyers!
Even Spektrum went to the new X mode that does hop to fix this flaw. Still DSM2 lives on and even worse, using a $5 clone RX from eBay. This is OK in clubs due to the fact that most members still fly this mode and probably so does the president!
Even high end Futaba owners in many clubs fly clone Futaba RX and that OK.
Then there's the fact that many new entry level flyers are "buying" into the hobby with the least expensive systems and many with a packaged ARF or RTF setup. Could it be that this equipment is indeed inferior and causes more club crashes, or the fact that the club itself doesn't have proper training sessions in place and allows them to solo too soon or no training at all? This and the fact that very few own the proper buddy box cable and unfortunately, many radios are not compatible or don't have the option. This also allows more untrained flyers to fly too soon solo.
All this results in excessive crashes that may not be radio related. I teach RC for free at several clubs and I find those that purchase a $300+ brand system seem to be more informed then the $100 Chinese combo owner. That and those that don't show up with a warbird type plane to learn on but instead a high wing cub type trainer seem to do better at mastering the first flights.

So my point here is, who are these th9x owners at this field that are being banned? Are they experienced RC flyers that indeed are having radio link failures, or are they new pilots flying warbird planes?
And of course, what brand radios do the president fly as well as any voting board members!
There could be more going on then just a concern about the stock 9x not working out well at your field.
Finally, adding a Frsky tx module and RX to a 9x is light years improvement and that's been proven. That and the fact that even the stock DJT module and a matching telemetry RX will warn the user that it's getting a low link connection long before losing control, and if it does, then the failsafe will kick in.
A Sprktrum flyer unless he's using a dx8 and a real x RX doesn't get any pre warning of link or frame losses. After the crash and if still working, you have to plug in the Spektrum thing that reads the RX info instead. It'll tell you then that you lost links, rebooted, of course the fact that you planes nose first in the ground is a good clue you lost control.
Same kind of thing for Futaba if at all?
Airtronics? I don't have a blue since I don't see many.
A 9x or 9XR with a Frsky setup is hard to fault!
SM


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[jhsa]

The funny thing is, when I go later in the afternoon to the field as I like some piece, and the nice people always go late when all the others are gone , I always see pieces of wood, foam and propellers scattered on the runway.. I believe I'm the only one using a 9x there, so, if they're not mine, they must be someone else's..

I see some guys driving to the field, taking the planes to the runway, start/launch them, fly straight to the ground, pack everything in the car and leave.. They don't ask for help and sometimes if you offer help, you get the bad evil looks, like if you're saying that they're stupid. they just don't accept that they can't fly. there are some guys, when they go to the field and go fly, all the others hide behind the cars.. No, I'm not joking or exaggerating..

It seems, at least as far as I can see, that the values, the teaching new people, the concern about safety, all this is fading.
It's very easy now for people to buy stuff in the internet without asking for advice, and not having a clue of how it works and how dangerous it can be if not used properly..

João

[maninvan]

I seriously believe the guys at my club are doing it because of a perceived safety issue. So I commend them for that.

Thanks for all the input. I'll look for the RC review on DSM2 (I've watched it before, but can't remember the exact issue they have)

I think the real issue is probably not doing a range check ( I bet the stock module has less range) and then a beginner with little control just goes straight out as far as you can see. It's just tempting fait.

[cre8tiveleo]

What Club? I use my 9x without issue. Where in Canada. Canada is a BIG place.

[Kilrah]

Stock module *normally* works just fine, there are many reports of people flying even into FPV ranges with no issue.
The main lacks are the fragility of the receiver antennas that seem to break more than they should and sometimes without it being noticeable, and of course the lack of failsafe. These can easily hurt the beginner who doesn't know so much what to be careful about. Note that a significant number of typical club members can fall in the "beginner" category when it comes to radios whatever their flying / building abilities...

FrSky RF works great, AND thanks to the RSSI and telemetry it can warn you of potential issues in advance.

[cre8tiveleo]

Did they ban the Spektrum transmitters when they had issues? No? Well them, they're jealous!

[maninvan]

I don't think it matters which club and where. They haven't banned them yet. They just had some issues and are considering it. I just need information for a counter arguments. Thx

[cre8tiveleo]

Sure it does. I may know some members in the club. All radios have issues. Also, it should then be made a MAAC issue then, if MAAC doesn't have an issue with it, then the club can't ban it.

[tilmanb]

Well, it's no secret that the FlySky RF has a few flaws with for example the scetchy failsafe. If you value (your own!) model more you use something like FrSky or anything that slots into a JR slot.
And it's also no secret that even the oh so modern and respected Spektrum system is not actually that brilliant.
I know of no common 2.4Ghz system that has any serious RF flaws like wide band flooding that would ruin the experience for all.

I would just call plain bullshit on any other claims until I see proof.

[ReSt]

Regarding the not existing failsafe of the FlySky radio. None of my FM radios before, ever had a failsafe.

And the range is really good. I fly 2 m electric gliders with the small 3 channel receiver, that sometimes is called a ground receiver and never noticed (*) a glitch. And I know (via GPS) that i hav flown with maximum altitude of up to 400 m and a max distance of about 450 m. That are distances where I nearly can't identify what the model does.

(*)
I use a separate circuit to control the battery cell voltages and also check the existence of the PWM stream of the motor channel. A dropout of about 1 second or more is remembered and displayed via a flickering LED.

Reinhard

[maninvan]

I think the MAAC guideline is good advice. currently the radio needs to be approved (FCC or IC) That would mean a FrSky module would be OK. I think that's a good approach of just enforcing the rules and not making up a new one.

[fburden]

The stock transmitter with the T9X (flysky) is according to their website, FCC approved.

as per their website....
http://www.flysky-cn.com/eShowProducts.asp?id=58

and here...
http://openrcforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=199

It's range was better than my futaba when I tested them side by side.

Ford

[Flaps 30]

It's range was better than my futaba when I tested them side by side.

That means nothing. Futaba is the gold standard that is respected worldwide. They cannot do wrong. They are like Yaesu is to the amateur radio community. No self respecting person in the hobby would dare to slag them off..

Maybe that is why I like the 9x and Kenwood radio equipment.

[sgofferj]

That (and people like jhsa's president) is just another perfect example why I am in no RC-club and never will be. Here in Finland not so much but in Germany extensively, clubs usually consist of "members" which usually have a sheep-mentality, do what they are told and vote for the guys who arranges the cheapest booze for the club house, and "leaders", which generally have their own agenda which usually is somehow motivated by commercial interest or other personal gain and just barely compatible with the club's "official" goals.
Basically it's like the "state game" of "the people and politicians" in a smaller scale.
Except of a few €/$ off some insurance or some equipment, those clubs are good for nothing. Any group of people can come together to exercise a hobby very well without a club. People are just so used to this club-concept that they all go there...

[ShowMaster]

In the big cities most parks and school grounds no longer allow us to fly planes.
Do to surrounding neighbors homes sometimes being damaged and no one taking repair responsibility in the past has helped to cause this. That and the too early engine sounds on weekends also has helped. Mostly nitro planes in the past but EDF jets haven't helped either in the last few years. The neighbors call the police when ever they hear our planes now. It's can be fine if written up!
This forces groups to ban together to lease land that planes can fly on. This also usually requires proof of large liability insurance before a lease can be signed. Usually it requires all flyers to have liability insurance. This is offered at a low price to a affiliated club. So of course one is formed, the insurance is arranged, and the land can be leased. Suddenly this formed "club" needs persons to take care of club related business to keep it functioning. So officers are elected and a board is appointed and suddenly the rules start being written.
Being in the city with neighbors close bye can still require rules about engine noise, flying hours, and no fly zones. These rules aren't popular with most but necessary.
I don't think any of us in the cities really want to be burdened with club rules but it goes along with the lease. Personally we all would like our own several acres and just invite a few good friends to fly with us but to earn big $$ we have to live near the big cities with little room for flying RC planes more and more.
If those before us years ago hadn't upset the neighbors with nitro planes in the park and school grounds, or not crashed on their houses and yards maybe we would still be welcome today?
So don't be so hard on clubs. For many of us it's the only option within 50-100 miles to be able to lease the land locally and fly. We all wish we owned our own private field "in the big city" or still welcome at the local parks or school grounds many enjoyed 20 years ago.
If you enjoy flying turbine planes you really have a runway and location problem.
SM



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[Rob Thomson]

This is why in many ways I love the slope soaring scene.

The nature of our flying is be default:

- quiet
- remote
- low impact
- distributed (different wind conditions mean different sites are used every day!)
- unregulated in most cases. common sense dictates the rules.

The nature of this sort of flying does not lend itself to clubs, and in most cases where clubs do exist - it is because they also have a flat field site. (few and far between)

What I can say from my experience here in the UK. There may be no club - but there is an incredible comradeship/team spirit. Superb really