Will FW update lose my model settings?

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Will FW update lose my model settings?

Post by mapes12 » Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:52 pm

I'm new to all of this.

I have two Turnigy 9XR's with stock FW. One for instructor (mode 1) and the other for pupil (mode 2). I've spent ages setting up a model just how I need it on the instructor Tx. I did this on the Tx, not via any PC software connection. I assumed (wrongly) that I could use either C9X or Eepe to connect to the instructor Tx and read the eeprom file to my PC. Then, I planned to simply connect up the pupil Tx and transfer the instructor Tx model settings to the pupil Tx. The result being that both Tx's have exactly the same model settings installed.

Through trial and error and much Googling I've found out that neither C9X nor Eepe can read the data on a stock 9XR. From what I've read I need to upgrade the FW on the Tx's before either C9X or Eepee can read or write to the Tx's. I think I can do this but my BIG question is: will I lose the model settings that I've spent ages setting up if I flash new FW into these Tx's, particularly the instructor Tx that has the model settings in it :?:

Thanks in advance.

Mark


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Re: Will FW update lose my model settings?

Post by Rob Thomson » Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:57 pm

Unfortunately yes.

But after you move over - you will not loose them again as upgrades support the spot on structure

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Re: Will FW update lose my model settings?

Post by jhsa » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:06 pm

Also you don't need to program the same model on the pupil's tx.. this one just needs a model with a simple 4 channel program, the instructor radio is the one that takes care of all the mixing..
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Re: Will FW update lose my model settings?

Post by mapes12 » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:13 pm

jhsa wrote:Also you don't need to program the same model on the pupil's tx.. this one just needs a model with a simple 4 channel program, the instructor radio is the one that takes care of all the mixing..
Are you sure? I have programmed flaperons on the instructor Tx and assigned them to the Gear switch. But when the pupil Tx is live (i.e. trainer switch on instructor Tx is active to allow pupil Tx to control the model) the Gear switch on the pupil Tx does nothing. I have assumed this is because I have not set up the full model profile on the pupil Tx just yet, hence my desire to copy the model from instructor Tx to pupil Tx.

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Re: Will FW update lose my model settings?

Post by Rob Thomson » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:17 pm

Best keep the 4 channel as jhsa said.

The slave transmitter can have mixes applied - but it just confuses things. The master should do the mixing.

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Re: Will FW update lose my model settings?

Post by mapes12 » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:20 pm

Rob Thomson wrote:Best keep the 4 channel as jhsa said.

The slave transmitter can have mixes applied - but it just confuses things. The master should do the mixing.
Thanks, but in this configuration how does the pupil get to deploy the flaps?

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Re: Will FW update lose my model settings?

Post by MikeB » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:47 pm

Interesting!
1. What happens on eepe when you try to backup the 9XR EEPROM?

2. Try something like:
On the student Tx:
CH05: +100% FULL GEA
On the Instructor:
Custom switch:
CS1 v>ofs PPM5 0 AND TRN
This will make custom switch 1 turn ON when the trainer switch is ON and the student has the flaps down
CS2 OR CS1 GEA
This will make CS2 ON either when the instructor switches the GEA switch, or when the student has control and they switch the GEA switch.
Now use CS2 instead of GEA to control the flaps channel on the instructor Tx.

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Re: Will FW update lose my model settings?

Post by mapes12 » Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:11 pm

MikeB wrote:Interesting!
1. What happens on eepe when you try to backup the 9XR EEPROM?

2. Try something like:
On the student Tx:
CH05: +100% FULL GEA
On the Instructor:
Custom switch:
CS1 v>ofs PPM5 0 AND TRN
This will make custom switch 1 turn ON when the trainer switch is ON and the student has the flaps down
CS2 OR CS1 GEA
This will make CS2 ON either when the instructor switches the GEA switch, or when the student has control and they switch the GEA switch.
Now use CS2 instead of GEA to control the flaps channel on the instructor Tx.

Mike.
For No.1 I cannot locate a "backup" setting anywhere. If you mean "Read memory from TX" then after AVRDude has read the Tx I get the attached screenshot.

For No.2 I will have to wrap a damp towel around my head and come back to you.
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Re: Will FW update lose my model settings?

Post by MikeB » Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:46 pm

It has read the EEPROM to a file temp.hex. Can you find this file (path shown on the window), and post it here for me to look at please.

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Re: Will FW update lose my model settings?

Post by mapes12 » Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:56 pm

MikeB wrote:It has read the EEPROM to a file temp.hex. Can you find this file (path shown on the window), and post it here for me to look at please.

Mike.
I've attached it and hope you have more luck in opening than I have just had. Thanks for helping me out.
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temp.hex
(9.64 KiB) Downloaded 208 times

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Re: Will FW update lose my model settings?

Post by MikeB » Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:58 pm

Your file is the same as mine!

OUCH!

I have a 9XR main board, never used it however. I just hooked it up and tried to read the EEPROM, it read, but got a rubbish hex file.
Then I had a look at the fuses and noticed the EESAVE bit wasn't set, so I tried to set it. It didn't set!
Then I had a look at the LOCK BITS and OUCH, the LOCK BITS are set to:
FURTHER PROGRAMMING AND VERIFICATION DISABLED. This applies to both the flash and EEPROM.

So it looks like HK have blocked access to the EEPROM via the programming port, careless of them. I thought eepe should still work.

Can anyone else check their lock bits?

If this is the case then it is impossible to backup the saved models. The only way to clear the lock bits is to completely erase the whole chip.

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Re: Will FW update lose my model settings?

Post by mapes12 » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:52 pm

MikeB wrote:The only way to clear the lock bits is to completely erase the whole chip.
How do I do this please?

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Re: Will FW update lose my model settings?

Post by MikeB » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:06 pm

I think if you just flash a new firmware a chip erase cycle will be done automatically.

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Re: Will FW update lose my model settings?

Post by gohsthb » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:00 pm

It works, I just tested by locking my chip. Simply doing nothing more than installing a new firmware on it fixed it.
-Gohst

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Re: Will FW update lose my model settings?

Post by bunker » Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:37 pm

Well unfortunately I lost a bunch of models when upgrading my Turnigy 9XR from the stock (HobbyKing build of er9x?) to OpenTx a couple of days ago. While Companion9X may be great software, it's not ok to do an upgrade that destroys my data without making it very, very clear beforehand. I don't feel that happened. :o :shock: If I had understood it from warnings, I could at least have made photo-backups of the settings to re-create later.

All my interest to recommend the software to others is now totally gone, and so is my will to donate. :(

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Re: Will FW update lose my model settings?

Post by jhsa » Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:15 am

nothing to do with companion.. hobbyking made modifications to the original er9x firmware making it NOT COMPATIBLE with companion or eepe.. so you can update your radio with both programs but they are not able to read your 9XR eeprom and save your models. Your comment above is very unfair. And yes, you could have made some photos of the setup. that is also not the developers fault. They spend thousands of hours of their free time working on these firmwares so we can enjoy them, and then get the blame for stupid things other people do, like making the firmware incompatible with the programs used to support it..

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EDIT: Being angry won't bring your models back,so.... you have two options,
1- do nothing, and your models won't program themselves :)

2- Program your models again with eepe/companion (depending on the firmware you are using) and take the chance to learn more about the software while you're at it.

Don't forget to backup all your settings to the computer. that way you won't lose anything anymore..
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Re: Will FW update lose my model settings?

Post by Kilrah » Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:51 am

Hobbyking, for some reason, set the "read protect" bit when they flash their radios, so that it is not possible to read the settings and models back from the radio.

We can't do much about it apart from what we already do, which is recommending to reflash the radio before starting to use it and not use the HK firmware.


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Re: Will FW update lose my model settings?

Post by Romolo » Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:00 pm

Nice attitude:
Hobbyking get a open surce software, breaks gpl license altering it and not releasing new sources, furthermore making settings unreadable to any pc software (eepe and companion), and you blame companion ?
Please continue donating to HK buying their radios.
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Will FW update lose my model settings?

Post by Daedalus66 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:36 pm

bunker wrote:Well unfortunately I lost a bunch of models when upgrading my Turnigy 9XR from the stock (HobbyKing build of er9x?) to OpenTx a couple of days ago. While Companion9X may be great software, it's not ok to do an upgrade that destroys my data without making it very, very clear beforehand. I don't feel that happened. :o :shock: If I had understood it from warnings, I could at least have made photo-backups of the settings to re-create later.

All my interest to recommend the software to others is now totally gone, and so is my will to donate. :(
I think you owe an apology to the people who provide us -- for nothing -- the best programming capabilities available anywhere.

The problem is not with Companion. It's with the decisions made by HK and your own lack of caution in not checking whether your HK version of the firmware was compatible before doing the upgrade.

I particularly resent your suggestion that they don't deserve donations! You just gave me the incentive to donate again!

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Re: Will FW update lose my model settings?

Post by Romolo » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:49 pm

I can afford the life with or without donations...
but I do not like to be blamed for someone else fault.

And about donating to HK
By read protecting the processor HK has practically made impossible to see if some mod has been done in the eeprom structure.
They state they are still on they firmware v1.1 on their forum but we have no way to check.
Maybe they are violating the GPL but this time we will never know...

I consider this sort of behavior barely legal, but again it seems that honesty doesn't matter, it's always much more important to blame others..

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Will FW update lose my model settings?

Post by ShowMaster » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:52 pm

As for backups and blame. Give us all a break!
It's an electronic piece of equipment. It's a $50 piece of equipment. Drop it you could lose your whole radio and mixes. Static discharge grabbing it could make it go brain dead.
I regularly backup my computer and cellphone and ipad and iPod for the same reasons.
At our field TXs get stolen, yes they are! Modelers are not all honest as goes our society these days. You lose your radio and equipment.
The point here is that if your mixes are so super important and you haven't figured it out yet, yes you should write them all down or take pictures of every screen and mix.
Every update ever posted by any computer, smartphone, or other electronic equipment that stores data that's critical has a warning upfront to backup your data first!
It's common knowledge that things can go wrong in the flash process. One is a power dip or loss during the flash process from your shore power! To be totally safe one should use a plugged in laptop with a charged battery or a desktop with a ups backup battery.
I repair many damaged RC systems for my club and I've seen it all! I can tell you none of the failures were planned but the outcome usually is lost data on any computer based RC system.
So I say this with all due respect, suck it up and get over it. Don't beat up the dedicated persons because you weren't told you could lose your data.
As for not donating to the persons making this all happen. Do you really think this knowledge and dedication can be bought for a small donation? What are you worth an hour or day or month? Of course not, it's a thank you from us for having to deal with all our issues and not giving up. They do it because they can and want to advance out hobby.
I was embarrassed reading who's being blamed for your mix loses that weren't backed up in some form, are you?

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Will FW update lose my model settings?

Post by ShowMaster » Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:52 am

Ok, my rant maybe was a little too much but so many people work so hard to keep our toys only getting better I hate to see the posted negativity in this forum no matter who's to blame.

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Re: Will FW update lose my model settings?

Post by jhsa » Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:47 am

ShowMaster wrote:I hate to see the posted negativity in this forum no matter who's to blame.
Blame me, I don't mind :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Seriously, The person that started this thread has only one post. Maybe this person is used to those forums where sometimes people insult each other, and doesn't know that this forum isn't like that.. He is very angry because of losing all his models and settings that probably took him a lomg time to setup.. he had to direct his anger to someone (not to himself of course). To HK, they don't give a S***, so the easiest way was directing his anger towards the developers that have absolutely nothing to do with his problem.. It's not their fault that Hobbiking locks the radios so they can't be read by eepe and companion.
So, It would be nice that the person in question apologize to the good people that work on this project and allow us to have one of the best Radio firmwares ever made.. Then we can welcome him to the forum like we do to everybody..

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Re: Will FW update lose my model settings?

Post by ShowMaster » Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:04 pm

I don't think he realized how protective everyone is of the family. I hope he joins us and asks for help to master his new radio and improve it to the point HK should have. There are still lost soles hanging out on the 9XR forum that's pretty dead waiting and hoping for fixes and up to date help from HK. Then they come here and don't expect the replies a post can generate.

Speaking of getting help.
I'm off to the ooenXsensor topic to read about about it. All my parts orders have shipped from china so I need to get ready.

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Re: Will FW update lose my model settings?

Post by jhsa » Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:13 pm

you will love it ;)
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Re: Will FW update lose my model settings?

Post by bunker » Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:18 pm

Ok, I'm sincerely sorry I was too blunt for what you like. I'm trying to not be so blunt but sometimes I fail from time to time. I'll never be a diplomat :shock: and maybe I'm socially defunct... :D But I do standby my opinions and if you care to discuss the topic in a not-so-bashing manor I will try too. Otherwise you won't see me again on this topic.

There appears to be an underlying tone that you may be nice and very helpful people here even though you gave me lots of grief over my opinions, so I'll try one more time at this forum.

As for my case specifically, I tried to do a backup before the upgrade of the firmware in my 9XR using Companion9x. Nothing super obvious told me it was unsuccessful. On the contrary I checked and saw data being written to my harddrive that appeared to be a non-empty backup. Since I couldn't find a way to verify it short of flashing it back it was a leap of faith I had to make, that the backup was good. I think that's the most that could be expected of me as an average novice user. Sure I could have done more, but would you expect all users to do more? If there is a manual or FAQ describing my scenario I managed to miss it. You are better equipped than me to know what kind of info you provide before the first use of Companion9x, but if something clear exist I still managed to miss it.

It's quite possible I misunderstood something that was happening but please understand I'm totally new, as in NOOB, to flashing firmwares in the R/C world and had no idea about the risks involved. Bashing me doesn't teach me anything, it just creates resentments. The installer or the first run of the program didn't give me all (or hardly any) of the risks ShowMaster explained so thoroughly a few posts back. I wasn't quite interested in spending days or weeks reading up on everything, I just wanted to make a backup and then flash another firmware on the radio to try out. I don't remember what research I did before attempting this but should I really have to do research before I use Companion9x? I did watch this video but it wasn't clear what state the 9XR was in before he started. Having heard or read nothing about the read-protection by HobbyKing I assumed Companion9x would guide me as necessary. I think it's fair to believe I may have done at least about average research before using Companion9x.

My main concern was wether Companion9x can detect that the rom is read-protected by the apparently evil HobbyKing developers or not. If it can, I think it would be very fair to make some kind of super obvious warning to the novice user like me that any attempted backups will not work even though something will be written to disk. After all, Companion9x is hopefully created to assist the user - even if HobbyKing has done something bad. And I should think 90% or more of the 9XRs are sold by HobbyKing so this may be a somewhat common scenario.

And no, the models lost aren't the end of the world, but can you really blame me for being upset when some of you got quite upset at my feedback? I lost many hours of setup (most notably an intensive day of thorough DLG setup) and you lost a minute or two from reading my post. I don't want to have a heated discussion on whose fault the lost models are, so please don't bring that up if you don't feel it's absolutely necessary. I respect your opinion but it's not actuall what I wanted to discuss.

Also note that I found this thread through Google (after my problem) and knew nothing more about what your community is like before posting. Everyone has to start somewhere. :-)

On the plus side I'm sincerely impressed that there are a number of people here that care deeply for Companion9x and I have now successfully subscribed to the thread, which I failed to do when I originally posted. I will discuss a bit further if necessary, even though it's really past any possible help for me. :-D I'm really just discussing this so other people will have less risk of making the same mistake I did. I'm freely supplying my feedback about my experience using Companion9x, to perhaps help improving it, just as freely as you all contribute in various ways, but I didn't exactly feel that it was appreciated. That was the original idea behind my first post as well but I didn't want to be as long-winded as this. ;)

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Re: Will FW update lose my model settings?

Post by ReSt » Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:54 pm

Suggestion:

Could Companion/eePe read the fuses as a first step and when it finds that the read protect fuses are set, give a strong warning message or do not backup at all ?

Reinhard

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Re: Will FW update lose my model settings?

Post by MikeB » Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:06 am

I hadn't originally realised HK were protecting the EEPROM. It still reads when protected, but the data is just not valid.
I'm the main developer on er9x at present, but HK never contacted me or provided a 9XR when they chose er9x as their firmware.
Since the firmware is open source, and the model data belongs to the user, I can see no reason for them to have protected either.

I can probably add something to eepe, but there is a problem. eepe (and companion) don't know what is currently in the EEPROM to be able to check it. If you have a new 9X (not 9XR), the EEPROM contents is totally different and meaningless to eepe, but can be backed up. It might be possible to check the lock bits, but this would need another AVRDUDE transaction before reading the EEPROM.
Others might have some other ideas.

ReSt: It's the LOCK BITS rather than the FUSES.

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Re: Will FW update lose my model settings?

Post by bunker » Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:54 am

MikeB wrote:It might be possible to check the lock bits, but this would need another AVRDUDE transaction before reading the EEPROM.
Others might have some other ideas.

ReSt: It's the LOCK BITS rather than the FUSES.

Mike.
Is that the same lock bit state you talked about earlier in the thread, back in July? From that post I thought it'd be quite possible to determine that a backup could not be completed. And if that's the case, it should be possible to warn the user. Wether this is accomplished in Companion9x, eepe or somewhere else is of little importance to me as a user of Companion9x. I just want to know if my backup contains c**p instead of a real backup.

And perhaps a little explanation of why.

Then I can have a chance to understand that I need to backup my settings some other way. And have a decent first experience with Companion9x.

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Re: Will FW update lose my model settings?

Post by MikeB » Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:11 am

Yes, the same lock bits. I'll try to check what AVRDUDE can do with them, I used my STK500 development kit from AVRStudio to see what they were set to.

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