RESOLVED: Template does not setup mixes using TAER order?

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KAL
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Re: Template does not setup mixes using TAER order?

Post by KAL » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:47 pm

Maybe I'm a bit goofy here but I don't understand what you mean with ELE and PITCH Servo.
This names belong to mechanical mixing where you indeed have separate servos for pitch, nick and roll.

But nevertheless:
If you used the template the swash type is set to '120'.
For this the rear servo should be connected to ch1, the front servos to ch2 and ch3.

If one of the servos moves the wrong direction you have to invert it in the limits menu.
If the entire swash plate moves to wrong direction, you can invert this in the heli menu
separately for 'aileron' (roll), 'elevator' (nick) or 'collective' (all three servos).

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Re: Template does not setup mixes using TAER order?

Post by jhsa » Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:04 pm

I think you have more than just one problem there..
Will have another look at your eeprom later.. does your radio have throttle on the left or right?

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Re: Template does not setup mixes using TAER order?

Post by Jerrit1 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:10 pm

...and for anyone who was offended by my "maybe this radio needs to go in the trash can" comment, I didn't mean the 9XR was a junk radio, I've owned a 9X, 9XR and now this 9XR Pro so I do like these radios a lot...I meant that in as much as maybe I should trash it and buy another 9XR Pro...maybe mine is bad from the factory, a bad solder joint or some internal issue causing my problems...just wanted to clear that up.

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Re: Template does not setup mixes using TAER order?

Post by Jerrit1 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:12 pm

jhsa wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:04 pm
. does your radio have throttle on the left or right?

João
It is a mode 2 with THR & RUD on left...I have also set it to mode 2 in the radio setup.

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Re: Template does not setup mixes using TAER order?

Post by Jerrit1 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:17 pm

I just found this... viewtopic.php?t=9298
This seems to be suggesting my 4 in 1 module has a set order that it needs. TREA order?
I will test this when I get home tonight.


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Re: Template does not setup mixes using TAER order?

Post by Daedalus66 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:59 pm

That's my understanding. The Multi module by default requires AETR input channel order for all protocols but produces TAER output when set to DSMX/DSM2. This is convenient if you use several different protocols -- as long as you realize what's happening!

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Re: Template does not setup mixes using TAER order?

Post by jhsa » Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:53 pm

Ahh yes, I have just realized you are using the 4 in 1 module, thanks Nigel :)

As Nigel said, you might have to set the channel order to AETR. The module will then convert it to the SPEK / JR channel order. Just move your mixes around and see if it works..

By the way, I'm sure no one got offended by your comment :mrgreen:
But, don't worry, if you ever think about trashing that radio, I'll mail you my address and pay the postage ;) :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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Re: Template does not setup mixes using TAER order?

Post by RCHH » Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:45 pm

Has this been sorted yet? I have never had a problem setting up flybarred helis with the Sky9X templates with Spektrash receivers. One just needs to FORGET all the channel labels on them. Plug servos in and try different slots to see what happens. Oce you get it right, make a note of it and there ya go.

AETR or TAER means nothing with this firmware. You can do it however you want. I even have one with throttle on Chan11, with collective on Chan3.

Just think - if you were using and FrSky receiver, all you would have are channel numbers to go by ...

If you have not got it working, let me know and I can sort it for you.
The simpleton asked "Hows about ErSky9X for Horus???". And the Genius from Dorset replied "Why not indeed? I shall get right onto it!" And then there was light on Horus! And it was good!

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Re: Template does not setup mixes using TAER order?

Post by Jerrit1 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:54 pm

No...not sorted yet...I had it real close though but the pitch servo was turning the blades the wrong way, by reversing the servo it made the swash not turn correctly, then I reversed the AILE servo and it messed the whole thing up.
The 4in1 manual says if i set my radio to AETR order that it will set my Spektrum clone receiver to TAER order...it did not do this. My current channel order on the Rx is ATER...this order was the only way I got all the servos functioning correctly except for the pitch of the blades.
I have tried plugging in the servos into the Rx in TAER order many times but weird things happen like the pitch servo does not move at all.

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Re: Template does not setup mixes using TAER order?

Post by Jerrit1 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:12 pm

RCHH wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:45 pm
Just think - if you were using and FrSky receiver, all you would have are channel numbers to go by ...
I did try this but some servos just didn't move the way they should have.
Also, being a Spektrum Rx I'd like to find a way to get the throttle on ch1 so the built in fail safe would reduce the throttle to zero on signal loss.
I'm hoping my problem is just a wrong combination of channel order and mixes but I cant seem to solve it being new to setting up a CCPM mix, all my current CCPM helis came as RTF.

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Re: Template does not setup mixes using TAER order?

Post by RCHH » Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:38 am

Jerrit1 wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:12 pm
RCHH wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:45 pm
Just think - if you were using and FrSky receiver, all you would have are channel numbers to go by ...
I did try this but some servos just didn't move the way they should have.
Also, being a Spektrum Rx I'd like to find a way to get the throttle on ch1 so the built in fail safe would reduce the throttle to zero on signal loss.
I'm hoping my problem is just a wrong combination of channel order and mixes but I cant seem to solve it being new to setting up a CCPM mix, all my current CCPM helis came as RTF.
It will be as you say. It can certainly be mind boggling at first try and a few subsequent ones!

What is the exact heli are you attempting to setup?

And rest assured, it will be possible to get it done! Years ago when HobbyKing released the first OrangeRX DSM2/X module for the transmitters hat !had 35MHz modules that were converting to 2.4GHz. Even if the transmitter was set to TAER , like the JR transmitters, the module output AETR! Caused all sorts of uproar as it was not possible to use it for Horizon Bind N Fly's as the channels were obviously all over the place.
It took HK many months to provide a fix, and even that meant buying a tool to update the firmware in the module.

But - the likes of us with transmitters running open source firmware had no such problem. We can output channels to wherever we want. Heaven!

Anyway, let me know the heli you have and I will give it my best shot. Most likely you will be able to use the supplied heli template (which, for a flybar hei is actually very good indeed) and change it around to suit - after all, you have at least 24 channels to play with, and I forget how many mixes now to juggle about! heh heh!
The simpleton asked "Hows about ErSky9X for Horus???". And the Genius from Dorset replied "Why not indeed? I shall get right onto it!" And then there was light on Horus! And it was good!

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Re: Template does not setup mixes using TAER order?

Post by jhsa » Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:46 am

As I already said above, create another model, just a simple one not an heli, and see if it outputs the channels correctly. If not, fix that one first, to make sure the radio is outputting the correct order. Then fix the heli programming if necessary..

João

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Re: Template does not setup mixes using TAER order?

Post by Jerrit1 » Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:09 am

RCHH wrote:
Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:38 am
What is the exact heli are you attempting to setup?
It is an older Align Trex 600 CF flybar with two servos up front and one in rear of the swash
Tx = 9XR Pro with ersky9xr r220 firmware and a 4in1 Multi module set for DSMX
Rx = Redcon CM703 7ch DSMX Spektrum clone with satellite

The radio is mode 2 and is set for AETR channel order per the 4in1 manual
I made a new model then used the heli template, I then moved the mixes so my throttle would be ch1, AIL ch2, ELE ch3, RUD ch4 and PITCH ch 6. However I had to plug into the receiver in ATER order to get my servos to behave (sort of) correctly.

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Re: Template does not setup mixes using TAER order?

Post by jhsa » Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:14 am

Please create a new model. Do not apply any template.
1- were the mixes created with the AETR channel order?

2- What is the channel order the receiver is outputting?

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Re: Template does not setup mixes using TAER order?

Post by RCHH » Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:01 am

Yep.
That will be the first, critical step.
Make it a 6 channel setup 4 channels to correspond to sticks, two assigned to a switch each. Once done, report back on what stick/switch moves what servo channel.Directions etc. Do not matter. All we are trying to discover is what are the outputs in relation to the inputs. It does not matter if say throttle comes out on channel 6 initially, as we can move it anywhere within the mixing screen. And it CAN be moved to Chan1 on your RX.

Then it is easy to translate that to the helicopter template. And I have used the same template on a Trex 550 flybarred (albeit with Futaba gear, but that is essentialky irrelevant) and it is a nice template. Very little work on it was needed to have a lovely stable heli.

Rake a tip though. Change it to a flybarless ASAP - you will NEVER want a flybarred heli again! Lol!

Edit! As it happens, I have a Redcon 7 channel RX here, and an Orange module I can work with. Perfect!
The simpleton asked "Hows about ErSky9X for Horus???". And the Genius from Dorset replied "Why not indeed? I shall get right onto it!" And then there was light on Horus! And it was good!

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Re: Template does not setup mixes using TAER order?

Post by jhsa » Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:35 am

As far as I understand, he is using the 4 in 1 module.
This module as default requires the radio to output AETR channel order, and then converts it to the channel order of the protocols that require a certain channel order.

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Re: Template does not setup mixes using TAER order?

Post by RCHH » Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:47 am

Shouldn't be a problem. Just a bit of lateral thinking, particularly if the user has only ever used mainstream radios where ones hand is held all the way for setups. Lol!

Similar problems happen to plenty of people trying to setup the OrangeRX flight stabilisers and their like.
They cannot wrap their heads around the fact the gyro correction setups MUST be done first, and then the stick inputs matched to it. Once they 'get' it, thry wonder what all the fuss was about!

Seems to me these days a lot are flummoxed unless they can see and to their setting up connected to a computer and have software that takes it step by step... heh heh! Me included for some! Only where there is no option mind you!

Even after all these years of using ErSky9X, I have never setup a model via EepSky! Lol!
The simpleton asked "Hows about ErSky9X for Horus???". And the Genius from Dorset replied "Why not indeed? I shall get right onto it!" And then there was light on Horus! And it was good!

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Re: RE: Re: Template does not setup mixes using TAER order?

Post by jhsa » Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:14 pm


RCHH wrote: Even after all these years of using ErSky9X, I have never setup a model via EepSky! Lol!
You don't know what you are missing :) I do it all the time and with the model connected to the computer, so I can see live on the model what I program in eepskye :)
And I'm talking about real models, not multirotors or other flying things that use flight controllers.. :D

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Re: Template does not setup mixes using TAER order?

Post by RCHH » Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:04 pm

Hahaha! Noooo I am old school - I like to figure things out in my head where possible and then if anything goes wrong, I KNOW it is only my fault! heheh!

I only use computer based programming as I said, where there is no option. Helicopter flybarless controllers are one, and some multirotor controllers I have. But those are boring. Click, click, click Done! Baseflight, Cleanflight and LibrePilot/OpenPilot being the worst offenders. You don't even have to bother reversing channels in the TX with those! Just tick a box in the software! Boring! lol!

My most complex setup is for my EDF 360 vectored thrust, working canards, leading edge slat mod, rudder mod, slimelight mod, nav/xenon strobe lights, wheel brakes, airbrake, brake chute the whole shebang Eurofighter Typhoon. 12 'moving things' channels, plus I think another 6 or so for fancy bits. All done by mine own fair hand! Mind you, I did almost burn out a couple servos whilst failing to get it right- several times!!!! lol!!! :D :D :D
The simpleton asked "Hows about ErSky9X for Horus???". And the Genius from Dorset replied "Why not indeed? I shall get right onto it!" And then there was light on Horus! And it was good!

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Re: Template does not setup mixes using TAER order?

Post by jhsa » Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:22 pm

Using eepskye is exactly the same as using the radio, but you have a bigger screen and a better overview of all the settings. You can also type values and select sources and switches from a drop down menu instead of scrolling through all of them. That is what I mean.. Not talking about flight controller's GUI :) ´
That means, you still do everything "by hand" as you say, just easily and quicker. :)

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Re: Template does not setup mixes using TAER order?

Post by Jerrit1 » Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:41 pm

Using eePskye I created a new model, set protocol to "Multi", channels to 7, sub-protocol to DSM & DSMX-22, I then set the Option field from 0 to 7 because someone said that mattered.

I did not need to use a template because the mixes were already there...
CH01 +100%Ail
CH02 +100%Ele
CH03 +100%Thr
CH04 +100%Rud

Next I disconnected all of the leads from the Rx and also the motor wires so I dint have to worry about the motor spinning up.

I then plugged a servo into...
CH1 (labeled THRO on the Rx) and the Throttle stick on the radio did move the servo.
CH2 (labeled AILE on the Rx) and the Aileron stick on the radio did move the servo.
CH3 (labeled ELEV on the Rx) and the Elevator stick on the radio did move the servo.
CH4 (labeled RUDD on the Rx) and the Rudder stick on the radio did move the servo.

so all looks good so far....then I add a heli template and I move the THR mixes to
CH01 CYC1 (Ail servo, right side of swash)
CH02 CYC2 (Ele servo, rear of swash)
CH03 THR mixes (4 lines of them)
CH04 RUD
CH05 CYC3 (pitch servo, left side of swash)
CH06 GYRO (not plugged in for this test)
CH11 pitch mixes

My pitch channel (CH05 CYC3) needed reversed, so now the swash goes up and down just fine with the throttle.
now here is the problem....when I move the elevator the PITCH & AILE servos move...when I move the aileron stick the PITCH & ELEV servos move.

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Re: Template does not setup mixes using TAER order?

Post by RCHH » Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:00 pm

Excellent. All servos are moving. That is 80% of the battle!

Righty, I am not about for a couple of hours or so - but will get onto my 9X when I get back to the laptop.

You are surprisingly close - but you said you needed Throt on RX slot 1 (Throt) to utilise failsafe. So some more moving about will be needed.

Also, we need to agree what servo is in what physical location on the heli. And it all must be described looking at the heli tail towards you.

Align standard is as follows, which it seems you have got:

Front Left Servo: = Pitch.
Front Right Servo = Aileron.
Rear Centre Servo = Elevator.

When using the Aileron stick,the rear Elevator servo must NOT move - at all.
When using the Elevator stick, all three will move. With UP elevator, the rear servo will cause the swash to lower. The two front servos will make it rise slightly.
With DOWN elevator, the reverse happens.

So looking at what is happening, a couple of mixes need moving, and potentially one or more swash settings for collective pitch reversing.

Will get it!
The simpleton asked "Hows about ErSky9X for Horus???". And the Genius from Dorset replied "Why not indeed? I shall get right onto it!" And then there was light on Horus! And it was good!

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Re: Template does not setup mixes using TAER order?

Post by Jerrit1 » Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:03 pm

RCHH wrote:
Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:01 am
Rake a tip though. Change it to a flybarless ASAP - you will NEVER want a flybarred heli again! Lol!
I'm sure thats true but it was a matter of economics, I bought this heli from a friend for $275 and it was ARF with 4 Futaba servos, a Futaba GY611 gyro, Castle 1515/2.5D/F motor, 6S lipo pack, two bodies and enough spares to make 4 complete swash heads. It only needed the receiver to fly.
I could not touch a flybarless 600 sized heli for anywhere near that price...although when i inevitably crash this one ill likely go flybarless. I only fly circuits anyway, no 3D and I have not crashed my 450 in a long time so well see.

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Re: Template does not setup mixes using TAER order?

Post by RCHH » Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:22 pm

Oh the 600 will be soooo easy to fly compared to tje 450. It will hover hands off long enough to have a cup of coffee in comparison! Haha!

If you do damage it and run out of head repair parts, or decide to go FBL, get a DFC conversion by Align (not at all costly really probably $75?) and a mini-kbar vbar clone from banggood or the like. For about $30 or so.
Crash damage is cheaper and the heli will be even more stable.

You will never look back!
The simpleton asked "Hows about ErSky9X for Horus???". And the Genius from Dorset replied "Why not indeed? I shall get right onto it!" And then there was light on Horus! And it was good!

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Re: Template does not setup mixes using TAER order?

Post by jhsa » Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:27 pm

Just a little note:
CYC1 - Is the Ele, and it should control the rear servo
CYC2 and CYC3 control the left and right servos..

Ok, the zip file attached has an eeprom file with two models.. The channel order is AETR.
Please try them and see if one of them work.. You will have to change the protocol to the correct one..

João
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Re: Template does not setup mixes using TAER order?

Post by RCHH » Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:21 pm

Use the standard heli template and amend as follows:

(Throt) CH1 = THR + All the ID mode mixes and the R-100 throttle cut. You can then use throttle failsafe on your Redcon 7 RX.
(Ail) CH2 = CYC1
(Ele) CH3 = CYC2
(Rud) CH4 = RUD
(Gear) CH5 = GEAR
(Aux1) CH6 = CYC3

Those are is the basic connections. You will see CH11 on the mix screen. Leave that as it is as it controls all of the flight mode settings, including some very nice curves. My 550 flew very well indeed on these settings.

You may well have to go into the HELI menu and reverse some of the ELE, AIL and COL directions. They ONLY change things for the swash collective settings, so if you have say two servos rising and one falling as you UP throttle stick, that one will need reversing.
It DOES not affect the Cyclic servo settings.
The simpleton asked "Hows about ErSky9X for Horus???". And the Genius from Dorset replied "Why not indeed? I shall get right onto it!" And then there was light on Horus! And it was good!

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Re: Template does not setup mixes using TAER order?

Post by jhsa » Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:38 pm

For AETR, I think you have CYC1 and CYC2 swapped..
CYC1 is the rear servo and it should be on CH2 as it is controlled by the Ele stick..
Check the file I've posted.. Let him try it and see if it works on his setup..

Also, he cannot have Thr on CH1 because the 4 in 1 module expects AETR not TAER. The throttle has to be on CH3.
That is why I asked him to create a simple model. If you look at the data he provided you will see that the 4 in 1 module is really mapping the AETR order to TAER on the receiver. So, if you put Thr on channel 1 it WILL NOT work :)

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Re: Template does not setup mixes using TAER order?

Post by RCHH » Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:32 pm

Not sure on that. That setup works with the Orange RX module with and the Redcon RX.

No matter though, as technically either can be made to work. He has 4 servos working so a modicum of juggling connections/swash/chan reversals if need be will get it going.

If it were on my bench less than ten mins start to finish. If there were room that is! Having a massed clearout and found enough bits to build a 450SE V2, a 450 Sport, 2 x 450 Pro's, a 500ESP (that will have a Tarot fbl head on it though) and a 500 Pro DFC! Plus the 600 kit I knew was in the loft! Haha!

Still about 20 boxes to go through! Ha! :o
The simpleton asked "Hows about ErSky9X for Horus???". And the Genius from Dorset replied "Why not indeed? I shall get right onto it!" And then there was light on Horus! And it was good!

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Re: Template does not setup mixes using TAER order?

Post by jhsa » Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:50 pm

RCHH wrote:
Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:32 pm
Not sure on that. That setup works with the Orange RX module with and the Redcon RX.
Yes but the Orange RX module expects TAER while the 4 in 1 Multiprotocol module expects AETR, otherwise the channel order at the receiver will be wrong...
You can't compare both modules.. And the big problem is that we can't put his model on our bench :mrgreen:
I believe that one of the models on the eeprom I have posted above will work. He might have to reverse some controls in the Model Setup/Heli menu though..

João
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Jerrit1
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Re: Template does not setup mixes using TAER order?

Post by Jerrit1 » Sun Apr 30, 2017 1:38 am

jhsa wrote:
Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:27 pm
Just a little note:
CYC1 - Is the Ele, and it should control the rear servo
CYC2 and CYC3 control the left and right servos.
I changed CYC1 and CYC2 around in the radio and now all is correct except when I add throttle the pitch on the blades goes negative and vice versa when I reduce throttle. What do I change to fix that?

Two other things I noticed, the simulator mode in eepskye no longer works, I go to that screen and move the sticks but the on-screen sticks dont move at all. Also the trims on the radio for AILE, ELEV and THR dont do anything....the trim for the rudder works fine.

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