WARNING: Known problematic USBASP

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mnementh
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Re: WARNING: Known problematic USBASP

Post by mnementh » Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:28 am

mbanzi -

Yes, I DID get stuck in "Switch Error Hell" as RPerkins stated... :lol:

I had ALREADY done the FULL MOD with Telemetry Hack BEFORE Flashing; when I kept getting the "CPU ID ERROR" from Companio9x AND the constant "Switch Error" alarm from the TX, I thought I'd shorted something out while doing my hack, as I described in my two posts above. BTW, having the Telemetry Mod done BEFORE flashing did NOT prevent me from getting the "CPU ID ERROR". Guess I'm just effin' special. :P

What I suggested adding to the Wiki was something to this effect:

1) When doing a "Full Mod" including the Telemetry Mod as described, keep in mind that if you do the Telemetry Mod on a stock 9x TX BEFORE flashing it, when you connect to the TX (or even power it up) it will give a constant "Switch Error!" alarm. DON'T PANIC! The OEM firmware expects a "Closed" circuit on each switch during POST, and will set that alarm BECAUSE we've cut the traces to pin 41 & 42. The er9x Telemetry Mod version firmware resolves this issue.

2) If using one of the popular USBasp programmers found on eBay and elsewhere on the internet, be aware of this issue: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2490 (link back here or wherever you feel the best current info on this issue is) Some of these generic USBasp programmers have a series resistor pack of incorrect value inline with the outputs, and it can cause programming failure or brickage even on a correctly modded TX.


RPerkins - I considered editing the WiKi Page myself, I SHOULD be able to if I'm off probation here. But I was feeling a bit noobish, and didn't want to step on any toes, so I figured I'd at least ask politely before watering somebody else's Cheerios. ;)


mnem
I flew today!!!

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rperkins
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Re: WARNING: Known problematic USBASP

Post by rperkins » Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:47 am

cool glad you got to fly. Yea that's why I didnt rush in and change it. I understand completely about walking gently editing the wiki. I did put your issue #2 up front in the programming section. I had edited that earlier so my footprint was already on it :)

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mbanzi
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Re: WARNING: Known problematic USBASP

Post by mbanzi » Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:28 am

mnementh wrote:mbanzi -

....

What I suggested adding to the Wiki was something to this effect:

...
Thanks for the suggestions, I added it to the Wiki. Hopefully this will prevent frustrations in the future. I'll update some of the pictures the next time I mod a 9x.

-Johan

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Re: WARNING: Known problematic USBASP

Post by ShowMaster » Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:36 am

I just helped a club member increase his throttle stick tension and I had go open up his 9XR he got 2 weeks ago. I looked for the cap on the reset line and its not there. So I think it's safe to assume that HK has removed it on the new shipments. Good news as far as the series 100 ohm resistor pack.
Here's a pix of his 9XR board.
SM
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1363660576.400363.jpg

Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk.

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rperkins
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Re: WARNING: Known problematic USBASP

Post by rperkins » Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:17 am

I got a shipment of betemcu.cn programmers today and they came from the factory with 100 ohm resistor packs. Hopefully they will ship 100's to all their customers and we can put this 220 ohm resistor pack issue behind us. No telling how many 220's are still out there on ebay though :(


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Re: WARNING: Known problematic USBASP

Post by bstott » Sat Apr 20, 2013 5:47 am

HI - WOW to follow.... :)

I am just getting into the RC fun and have both a 9X and 9XR. I've done some AVR programming with a programmer and using FTDI bitbang. Well, I like the cheap programmers. If soldered right - they will work. I too am tired of the worthless 'SCK' warning. I will reprogram the programmer - maybe.

I ran into the noted ATMEGA64 ID issue today. My 9XR has the ATMEGA128. The error showed when I used companion9X to read the 9XR's flash using the problem USBasp with resistors. My resistors are the ones marked 101 so they are 100Ohm. This is the resistance value that Thomas had noted caused his problem and he believes should likely be 0Ohm. I concur.

Now, here is some backwards logic. I looked at the programmer and the resistors. I thought a little about not needing resistors to protect against over current. I remembered bitbang and looked at a bub (break out board for the FTDI serial chip). No resistors. I thought a little and read a test for a bitbang project and they used an LED to test. They used a 220Ohm resistor to protect burning out the LED as you would driving an LED from an ATMEGA mcu. But, I thought - you aren't needing to protect the ATMEGA port from an ATMEGA port. There is not a load but, digital signals. A transfer of voltage changes - high & low. A light went on - in my head not the LED. <grin> Again, the programmer is using an AVR (ATMEGA8) and the 9XR is also an ATMEGA - 128 or variant. I looked at the fischl.de schematic from which all these programmers are based. Guess what? NO RESISTOR ON ANY LINE other than a 1k on the Txd. I thought..... The ATMEGA chips can be directly connected to communicate without worry of burning them out.

Uh, on a separate note. Since we don't really brick the mcu we should use a different term. If we screw up programming an mcu the chip is likely fine unless it gets fried (Pop, fiz, smoke - no relief.). We then simply reset the fuses per another programming process outlined with our software and flash the firmware.

Anywho --- back to our programmers. My conclusion is to do as Thomas from rc-cam.com noted and performed in his fine blog ---- get rid of the resistor pack. And I will be.

As to the 1k resistor in the original design - We can likely be fine without the 1k on the Txd line. This may have been for timing? If so, our slow process is likely not to have an issue. I think the flashing software may even have some features to take care of timing and re-sending data. Again a question? But, Thomas and some others are fine with no resistors. The original designs have almost no resistor. And review of what we are doing on the pins - No Load - No Resistor. Also - I see that the 220 to 100 Ohm hack is a waste of time, money and worry over nothing AND is likely not to work for some - like me. I have 100Ohm resistors and I HAVE THE problem. Also, another programmer built into a 9X does not have this issue and no resistors either. All IMHO & FWIW.

Thanks to Thomas for finding the problem and pointing it out on his re-cam blog. I read about this problem and its solution a month before I got caught. ;-)
Been there..... Don't want to do it again!

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Re: WARNING: Known problematic USBASP

Post by Kilrah » Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:40 am

bstott wrote:But, I thought - you aren't needing to protect the ATMEGA port from an ATMEGA port.
You're forgetting one thing - this is correct if you program an atmega that is not in a circuit. But the basic "problem" with in-circuit programming is that said circuit might be badly designed and have conflicting paths. For example some guy uses the SCK pin of the target atmega to connect a switch to ground. If he doesn't put a resistor between the pin and the switch, and makes sure the programmer is connected on the mcu side of the resistor, then should the switch be closed when programming you'll be shorting the programmer's output. The resistors on the programmers are there to protect it in this kind of scenarios. Or if someone simply connects the programmer wrong.
When dealing with hobbyists who might not always know what they do they aren't too far-fetched.

The stupidity is that those resistors of too high values (the 220 Ohms) do the opposite, and cause trouble when the circuit is right. Someone without much knowledge probably just ran out of 100 Ohm resistors and took what he found :D

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Re: WARNING: Known problematic USBASP

Post by Flaps 30 » Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:21 am

bstott wrote:I ran into the noted ATMEGA64 ID issue today. My 9XR has the ATMEGA128. The error showed when I used companion9X to read the 9XR's flash using the problem USBasp with resistors. My resistors are the ones marked 101 so they are 100Ohm. This is the resistance value that Thomas had noted caused his problem and he believes should likely be 0Ohm. I concur.
I have two units that have the 100 Ohm (101) resistor packs. They perform okay on the 9X including programming retrofitted Atmega128's on two transmitters. As Kilrah has mentioned. It seems that at some point resistor packs of 220 Ohm (221) and above have been produced. It is those that are the problem ones.

Of course the 9XR might have a different circuit on the lines that the programmer uses, which may put an extra load on the programming lines. If that is true, then only programmers with zero Ohms will work.

Have you programmed your transmitter?

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Re: WARNING: Known problematic USBASP

Post by jhsa » Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:31 am

My experience with both atmegas128 on 2 different 9x radios is that they both behaved different when I tried to program them for the first time.. Go figure..
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Re: WARNING: Known problematic USBASP

Post by Flaps 30 » Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:15 pm

jhsa wrote:My experience with both atmegas128 on 2 different 9x radios is that they both behaved different when I tried to program them for the first time.. Go figure..
IIRC your programmers are/were not of the type being discussed on this thread. Yes your case was rather odd... Maybe the Moon had something to do with it? Lack of beer is another theory.

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Re: WARNING: Known problematic USBASP

Post by jhsa » Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:27 pm

Used 3 different. MySmartUSB Light, Hobbyking USBASP, and a self made USBASP from the fischl page..
So, I guess two of them are the same type.. Oh, forgot to mention, I have one from this type, thanks to a member of this forum, without the resistors, but when I connect it to my radio, it starts rebooting and never passes the splash screen. will have to disable the power and try it with the radio powered by it's battery.. ;)

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Re: WARNING: Known problematic USBASP

Post by rperkins » Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:26 pm

Flaps 30 wrote: Of course the 9XR might have a different circuit on the lines that the programmer uses, which may put an extra load on the programming lines. If that is true, then only programmers with zero Ohms will work.
These programmers ( with a 100 ohm resistor pack) work fine with the 9XR that I have. I do use the open source firmware and not the chinese firmware that comes on them. Sold about 100 of them without any returns. I have a very liberal return policy :)

bstott wrote: I thought a little about not needing resistors to protect against over current.
FYI, another perspective
http://avrprogrammers.com/avr-isp-spi.php

My 9XR has the ATMEGA128.
I do not have the rare 9xr with m128. Are they advertising that feature or is it an anomoly ?
maybe the atmega128 uses extended addresses that the chinese firmware on his programmer stumbles upon. Hard to tell exactly as the poster didnt report his exact error message. I have programmed an atmega2560 with these programmers, although it was not in a 9x/9xr

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Re: WARNING: Known problematic USBASP

Post by Kilrah » Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:00 pm

They didn't advertise the m128 nor adapt the firmware for it AFAIK - but it seems all new 9XRs come with one.

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Re: WARNING: Known problematic USBASP

Post by bstott » Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:25 pm

Quick Notice!

I just hacked my USBasp ---- It is the one discussed. I removed the 100Ohm resistor pack. That was one real micro soldering experience. My soldering iron tip is a telephone pole and the programmer SMD area is sub-micro. :-(

I realize some my errors:
I did not know. --- I've never used companion9X or eePe. --- I forgot abut avr settings since we are not working with avrdude via command line. --- I haven't used the programmer in a while. --- All of these.

Notice: companion9X (& eePe) under 'Configuration' has a setting to change the mcu type. Available choices are m64, m128 or m2560. I'd left mine at the default m64 for the ATMEGA64. I was initially working on my 9X (m64) with no problems and a different programmer. I then left the settings for the 9XR (m128) and the different programmer. Thus, all was good for my 9X but, I received errors on the 9XR. I then looked and found the configuration settings to change the mcu being programmed. Duh, I changed the value --- The 9XR works fine now with the newly hacked programmer.

I have the impression from those in the forum with the 100ohm resistor pack outfitted programmers that all IS well. My mcu ID error was very likely caused by mis-configured software and the only thing needing to be changed - m64 to m128. Conclusion: Well, I got some knowledge about the programmer circuitry, was reminded of avrdude command line switches and have more tiny SMD soldering experience. Now I've soldered SMD with a BIG iron tip!

Oh, Turnigy has firmware for the 9XR with the m128 chip available on their website.
Been there..... Don't want to do it again!

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Re: WARNING: Known problematic USBASP

Post by rperkins » Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:34 pm

bstott wrote:Quick Notice!

I have the impression from those in the forum with the 100ohm resistor pack outfitted programmers that all IS well. My mcu ID error was very likely caused by mis-configured software and the only thing needing to be changed - m64 to m128
Thanks for the follow up. I was just looking at selling my m64 9xr and backordering thru HK for a unit with the upgraded mcu, just to be able to verify the programming . Thanks for verifying that for me.

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Re: WARNING: Known problematic USBASP

Post by JustinTime » Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:12 pm

I have 4 programmer that I flashed with the main.hex. I have a virgin 128 chip installed and non of these programmer talks to it. I bought a fifth programmer that arrived today. I hooked it up to the chip and it talks to it. I get the sck error and the 'Device signature' error (even tho I have set -B 100) but at least it reads the chip, the other programmer don't. Now I'm afraid to convert it too to main.hex.

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Re: WARNING: Known problematic USBASP

Post by backman8571 » Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:48 pm

bstott wrote:Quick Notice!

I just hacked my USBasp ---- It is the one discussed. I removed the 100Ohm resistor pack. That was one real micro soldering experience. My soldering iron tip is a telephone pole and the programmer SMD area is sub-micro. :-(
After i get my usb programer could you contact me to help me flash my 9XR with the open software so i can use telemetry

Cheers

Per

perincolony at gmail dot com

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Re: WARNING: Known problematic USBASP

Post by rperkins » Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:28 am

I have had 2 customers since Christmas 'think' they had this issue and unsoldered the pack. This issue is sort of outdated.

Unless you purchase a Usbasp from an ebay seller that has stock that is older than 9 months( around May 2013), you probably wont have this issue. If your betemcu.cn has all the components on one side, you do not have this issue. If you purchased from http://9xrprogrammer.com or user 9xrprogrammer on ebay, you do not have this issue.

Only if your programmer's resistor network is marked something other than '101' will you have this issue

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Re: WARNING: Known problematic USBASP

Post by bpopp » Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:03 pm

I realize this is an older thread, but I have one of the new betemcu chips with the 100ohm resistor pack (from 9xrprogrammer.com). I'm having the same issue (incorrect device ID that changes for each attempted flash) while trying to flash my HK F30 ESC's. I found this thread from another thread that was discussing how they had fixed a similar issue by removing the resistor pack. I don't have the skill or the equipment to try this, but is it likely to be the issue? Many here don't seem to think the 101 resistor pack should cause issues with the 9xr, but could it for ESCs?

I WAS able to flash the ESC using an ArduinoISP setup (bypassing the betemcu), so I know it's not my setup.

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Re: WARNING: Known problematic USBASP

Post by rperkins » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:38 am

In a nutshell the arduino can provide more current to the esc than the usbasp can provide. Secondly, although probably unrelated in this context, the arduino as a programmer would use different drivers in the Windows OS.

With ESC it is important to power them from their own power supply. The usbasp can not provide enough power through the programming connections to power the esc. The esc sends the usbasp into a 'brownout' condition. Some ESC can pull a WHOLE lot of current immediately after rebooting with new firmware.

the best advise I read was to use a current limited power supply to power the ESC during programming. This can be as simple as a couple of batteries in series with a 12v light bulb in series as well.
http://wiki.openpilot.org/display/Doc/F ... efirsttime

Why is 101 marked ( 100 ohm ) resistor packs ok when 220 (220 ohm ) resistor packs are bad ? Well the 9x ( and the 9xr for that matter) were not designed to be reprogrammed. the same lines that are used for reprogramming are also used for switch inputs. On the 9x/9xr mainboard the switch input circuits have a series resistor of 200 ohms. The resistors on the main board and the resistors on the usbasp create a voltage divider which reduces the communications signal on those lines. Very simply 100 is less than 200 but 220 is more than 200.

The series resistors on the usbasp are not a bad thing as they are recommended in the atmel guides for programming their MCU's. They just dont work out on the 9x/9xr if the resistor value is very high. I doubt they would cause a trouble on an ESC, but cant say for sure without reviewing a schematic of your actual ESC. I havent heard of it being an issue though

Yes I still offer the units with the inline resistors because that usbsasp supports 3.3V operation, brings some of the extra unused data lines out to the socket ( for development projects), and comes with a nice case. They work fine for our programming needs. The newer '6 pin' usbasp does not have any series resistors in it at all. the 6 pin outsells the older unit substantially . Price is king even when it is just over a buck :)

I'd be more than happy to ship you a for a 6 pin version to see if you like that better. Return whatever you dont want. Follow up through this process http://9xrprogrammer.com/index.php/contact

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Re: WARNING: Known problematic USBASP

Post by bpopp » Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:49 am

I appreciate the offer rperkins, but I have an 9xr on its way from China, so I'll hopefully be able to make use of the loader and I was able to get all my ESC's flashed using the Arduino. If I can't make that work either, I may hit you up to try the 6pin, though.

I actually did try powering the ESC with an old 12 volt battery I had laying around and it didn't seem to help. I didn't use a lightbulb, so hopefully I didn't do any damage to my ESC.

I found several other threads (see above) where this issue was mentioned with regard to ESC's (particularly the HK UBEC) and in both they had unsoldered the resistors to workaround the issue. I would think that if it was a power issue (or something else), this wouldn't have worked. It's probably a similar issue whereby the ESC already has series resistors installed inline with the programmer and adding resistance attenuates the signal too much. I can't find a schematic, but here's a photo of the ESC:

Image

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Re: WARNING: Known problematic USBASP

Post by rperkins » Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:43 am

ok

about the esc you would need to either trace the path from the pads to the pin on the mcu and see if it goes through any resistors or measure the resistance between the pads and the pin on the mcu. Most ESC use an atmel m8. Only atmel based ESC can be programmed with a usbasp. I think the other ESC use a SI (silicon labs) based MCU. The Atmel m8 processor and the pinouts are available. If you wanna go down that route or need anything else let me know.

I hope your 9xr arrives soon. This is the post chinese new years delay time of year. Happy Chinese New Year, BTW.
Fedex isnt even open till tomorrow. Ground (sea) based shipping will be worse.

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Re: WARNING: Known problematic USBASP

Post by NebuK » Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:13 am

Hi,

i have a problem that is rather strange and that i thought might be related. I have a "LCSoft Studio" USB-ASP, it looks like this one:
http://slackworld.org/blog/wp-content/u ... lcsoft.jpg

I tried to measure those 4 resistors (R6 is removed on mine) and find them at the ISP-pins. They don't seem connected. Tracing traces is a little hard due to the thick paint on the actual device. So i guess there are no resistors at all involved. So far right?

The problem is now that i can flash the 9X when the back cover is removed. That means, the plug that runs to cables to the back is unplugged, and those two spring-like ground connectors are not connected. Whenever i connect those ground thingies or the plug or both, flashing fails with the usual warning. I tried removing the battery, removing the FrSky module, you name it. I even tried removing the RST-capacitor, but that did not help. My 9X has the FrSky Telemetry-mod installed, if that changes anything (so i soldered the MOSI/MISO to the AVR pins directly, together with the telemetry cables, instead onto the pads -- the pads have their traces to the pins cut). I think the mod cannot break this, as the MOSI/MISO pins are routed only to usb-asp, and to the module slot pins. With the module removed, theres no connection.

Is there anything i could try to still make this work? I'm a little lost debugging...

Thanks, and best regards!
-NebuK

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Re: WARNING: Known problematic USBASP

Post by rperkins » Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:43 am

NebuK wrote:Hi,
I have a "LCSoft Studio" USB-ASP, it looks like this one:
http://slackworld.org/blog/wp-content/u ... lcsoft.jpg
Looks a lot like the usbasp HK sometimes stocks. I believe this pic is outdated based on customer comments
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... duct=27990
I havent seen any mention on inline resistors
Tracing traces is a little hard due to the thick paint on the actual device
Use your soldering iron to melt the conformal coating on the pad you wish to measure.
and those two spring-like ground connectors are not connected
My understanding is those spring like things are leftover from when the radio had a 35mhz moduleand that the spring like things can be removed.
flashing fails with the usual warning.
If you follow up please quote the actual warning
My 9X has the FrSky Telemetry-mod installed, if that changes anything
I'm not familiar enough with this mod, the various implimentations of it, or your actual scenerio to advise on this.

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Re: WARNING: Known problematic USBASP

Post by jhsa » Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:14 pm

Does the flashing fail with both halves of the radio connected? Try flicking the THR switch to the ON position before flashing.. There were cases where people had to play with the THR and AIL switches..

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Re: WARNING: Known problematic USBASP

Post by ReSt » Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:16 pm

Check the position of the throttle switch.

I do have TXes that only can be programmed with the Throttle switch in the down position

Reinhard

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Re: WARNING: Known problematic USBASP

Post by NebuK » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:39 am

Hi,

thanks for your replies! The error i'm getting is:

Code: Select all

=================================================================================
Started AVRDUDE
/usr/bin/avrdude -c usbasp -p m64 -U eeprom:r:/tmp/temp.hex:i
=================================================================================

avrdude: warning: cannot set sck period. please check for usbasp firmware update.
avrdude: error: programm enable: target doesn't answer. 1 
avrdude: initialization failed, rc=-1
         Double check connections and try again, or use -F to override
         this check.


avrdude done.  Thank you.


=================================================================================
AVRDUDE done - exit code 1
=================================================================================
From what i understand, the telemetry mod moves the two switches that are routed to MOSI/MISO to some unused pins on the other side of the AVR. I think this is THR and AIL switches. Then, the telemetry serial line (????) is moved to MOSI/MISO. I soldered cables on those pins and routed them directly to the unused module pins. This can, as far as i understand, not lead to any problems flashing because i removed the module at flash time. Also, the cables are permanent, so they have been connected with the positive flashing attempts when the back cover was removed.

I tried flicking the switches on the back, especially THR and AIL, but i suspect it cannot help because they have been relocated by the telemetry mod (???). Nonetheless, flicking some or all switches did not result in any help.

Thanks for your help! Best Regards
-NebuK

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Re: WARNING: Known problematic USBASP

Post by rperkins » Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:49 am

That error means that the usbasp can not find the tx. It also means your drivers are installed properly, if you are on windows.
I think you are on the right track in suspecting something with the mos you have done. Were you able to flash before you modded the board. Another thing to see is if the tx lcd goes blank when you attempt to program. It should. If it doesnt then maybe the reset isnt being pulled down properly.

I dont believe your issue is related to this thread. you may get more advise and eyeballs if you start a new thread, detailing exactly what and how you modified the board. include url's and pics.
Good luck

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Re: WARNING: Known problematic USBASP

Post by ShowMaster » Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:42 pm

I found this link that has some good USBasp info.
http://www.rc-cam.com/forum/index.php?/ ... entry27092



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Re: WARNING: Known problematic USBASP

Post by rperkins » Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:55 pm

ShowMaster wrote:I found this link that has some good USBasp info.
http://www.rc-cam.com/forum/index.php?/ ... #entry2709
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This latest poster piggybacking on this mainly obsolete thread does not have the usbasp mentioned in the original post nor in the one you linked to.

The usbasp this thread is about is 2 genarations old now and it was a subset of that generation that had the problematic resistor values. Unless your usbasp is over a year old and you are just starting to use it with a 9x/9xr or a merchant has some old stock, this is a dead horse.

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