Ic certification for canada

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tomxl3
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Ic certification for canada

Post by tomxl3 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:52 am

Hi is frsky ever going to get certification in canada as it stands maac canada just sent an email stating that we are no longer able to use frsky products here without breaking the law if caught a $5000 dollar fine with jail time insane i know they have fcc certification but that doesn't qualify !
any thoughts on this ?
i love this transmitter and hate to lose it😕

tomxl3
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Re: Ic certification for canada

Post by tomxl3 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:59 pm

We'll guess no one has anything to say just was looking at the laws on the Canadian government website and the laws are true if not approved for certification through industry canada with a IC identification number on the transmitter then it's illegal to use with strict consequence !
also looked into maac canada and noticed why they all of a sudden changed there rules
in the map2 documents on there website it use to state that ''FCC or IC " would be accepted but it has been updated and remove the FCC and now only IC is expected so they clued in that Fcc is not certified by Canadian government so any transmitters whether it be video or RC that do not have IC certification are illegal which really sucks !
not sure why almost all of the RC equipment I've been using for the past many years have FCC but not IC?
i know it cost money to get certification but I'm sure the cost is way less than a loss of sales here in Canada just my opinion
Please respond back to what your thoughts are positively or negatively I'm fine with both!

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jhsa
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Re: Ic certification for canada

Post by jhsa » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:23 pm

There are some other Canadian people here on he forum. Let's see what they have to say.. Are there any Canadian companies manufacturing RC gear? ;) :)
If FCC or even CE are not accepted, you might not even be allowed to use any foreign equipment.

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Kilrah
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Re: Ic certification for canada

Post by Kilrah » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:31 pm

Well they are allowed, as long as either the manufacturer or national distributor makes the effort to get certification.

Unfortunately most countries who insist on having individual requirements instead of doing something common with neighboring countries tend to get ignored nowadays. With 2 applications you can get 80% of the market, and to gain the remaining 20% you'd need 50 applications - not worth the hassle and cost.

tomxl3
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Re: Ic certification for canada

Post by tomxl3 » Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:19 pm

Kilrah wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:31 pm
Well they are allowed, as long as either the manufacturer or national distributor makes the effort to get certification.

Unfortunately most countries who insist on having individual requirements instead of doing something common with neighboring countries tend to get ignored nowadays. With 2 applications you can get 80% of the market, and to gain the remaining 20% you'd need 50 applications - not worth the hassle and cost.

OK I know that making an effort does not count in Canadian law the law is the law that's pretty much saying that if they made an effort to get fcc. Or ce certification and we're denied than its legal to use .
I don't think so just my opinion!
And i think the Canadian market is big enough to get certification we have many loyal customers here to!


Daedalus66
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Re: Ic certification for canada

Post by Daedalus66 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:42 pm

I understand MAAC is working with Innovation, Science and Economic Development (the new name for Industry Canada) to facilitate certification in Canada based on testing for FCC certification. This would definitely be a step in the right direction.
We’ve lived with the current situation for a long time and while no one is likely to invoke the regulations at this point, it would be good to resolve it.

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deaconFlyer
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Re: Ic certification for canada

Post by deaconFlyer » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:12 pm

This discussion comes up time and time again. You might be surprised how few transmitters and telemetry-transmitting receivers actually are ISED certified. Do the search yourself at: https://sms-sgs.ic.gc.ca/equipmentSearc ... s1&lang=en

Having regulations and enforcing regulations are two different things. IC (now ISED) simply said, lacking complaints or interference problems we will not enforce the regs.

If there were "illegal" to use, no retail shop would be permitted to sell them. It would be impossible to import them. You would see warnings published everywhere telling you of the great dangers you are posing with your limited range, low power, transmitter.

You are seeing this in the US however with the wireless microphone frequencies where transmitters that have a 250-300' tranmission range are being declared illegal because major corporations have purchased the 600mhz bnd for their internet transmission. I don't think there is a chance of doing that with 2.4mhz.

There are literally tons of electronic equipment in the 2.4mhz band that exists in that great grey area and there is literally no desire (or even ability on behalf of government) to clamp down.

Enjoy!

====================

This MAAC statement (from 2009) used to be on their website at http://www.maac.ca/docs/2010/2009_radio ... report.pdf (link is not there now!)

"Background:

As you know there are a lot of new radio products coming into the market. Particularly 2.4 GHZ products from overseas are presently flooding the market. I am well aware that some of these products do not have an Industry Canada (I.C.) certification. I recently brought this to Industry Canada’s attention. They realize there are a lot of radio products coming into the country without proper certifications. They told me they could enforce the regulations, but if there are no complaints and no interference issues, they left that up to us if we wished them to proceed with the heavy hand. I have information from I.C. that tells me their tests are almost identical to the F.C.C. for certification. As 2.4 GHZ is an unlicensed and regulated band, (We do not pay a licence fee) and there have been no reports of interference. I have listed below the approach I would like to take. In consultation with the Safety Chair and the Insurance Chair, I am suggesting changing the following:

- 2.4 GHz and 27 MHz Radio systems are permitted when used in accordance with Manufacturers’ recommendations and Industry Canada regulations.

- All Radio systems shall be approved by Federal Communications Commission (F.C.C.) or Industry Canada (I.C.) regulations and shall have an FCC or IC sticker attached. Radio Systems shall be used in accordance with Manufacturers’ recommendations.

As you know there are a lot of new radio products coming into the market. Particularly 2.4 GHZ products from overseas are presently flooding the market. I am well aware that some of these products do not have an Industry Canada (I.C.) certification. I recently brought this to Industry Canada’s attention. They realize there are a lot of radio products coming into the country without proper certifications. They told me they could enforce the regulations, but if there are no complaints and no interference issues, they left that up to us if we wished them to proceed with the heavy hand. I have information from I.C. that tells me their tests are almost identical to the F.C.C. for certification. As 2.4 GHZ is an unlicensed and regulated band, (We do not pay a licence fee) and there have been no reports of interference. I have listed below the approach I would like to take. In consultation with the Safety Chair and the Insurance Chair, I am suggesting changing the following:

- 2.4 GHz and 27 MHz Radio systems are permitted when used in accordance with Manufacturers’ recommendations and Industry Canada regulations.

- All Radio systems shall be approved by Federal Communications Commission (F.C.C.) or Industry Canada (I.C.) regulations and shall have an FCC or IC sticker attached. Radio Systems shall be used in accordance with Manufacturers’ recommendations."

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deaconFlyer
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Re: Ic certification for canada

Post by deaconFlyer » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:20 pm

Just found this ...

MAAC Policy and Procedures Document MPPD # 12 – Operation of R/C Equipment.

1. Canadian law requires that all commercially available radio control systems used in
Canada on the license-free bands must be certified by Industry Canada (IC).
Certification essentially involves testing the transmitter to determine that it transmits
consistently within Industry Canada standards. Compliance with IC certification may
be displayed either on a sticker attached to the transmitter or, on transmitters with an
integrated display screen, can be presented electronically. All members are advised
that use of a non IC certified transmitter while it may not be a safety concern could
result in prosecution under Canadian laws.

2. One issue debated over the last few years has been the use of non IC certified
receivers. It has now been confirmed that ALL brands of receivers that do not
transmit data (telemetry) back to the transmitter do not require IC certification.

3. Some radio control systems used by qualified and licensed HAM radio operators on
approved amateur radio bands may or may not have approval stickers but are also
acceptable in Canada. Only members licensed by Industry Canada may operate radios
using the Amateur Band frequencies.

4. The Radio Equipment List (REL) published by IC is the authority
on which systems are IC approved. If the radio system you are considering
purchasing does not appear on the REL it would be a good idea to contact IC or the
manufacturer to find out why.

5. Most modern R/C Systems have a built in “Fail-safe” feature that enables the
operator to preset parameters such as throttle position to return to a safe setting
in the event of a loss of contact. All members should ensure that the fail-safe feature
has been properly set and should check for the correct setting periodically.
Manufacture’s recommended procedure should be followed to set and test the fail-
safe. An improperly set fail-safe can be very dangerous especially in models where
loss of contact could result in the unplanned start and/or advance to full throttle of the
motor. This is especially important in the case of electric powered models.

6. Caution should be exercised in the combined use of receivers and transmitters of
different manufacturers. Modern computer radios operate with considerably more
advanced technology than the old FM sets. Even the use of mismatched transmitters
in the role of a buddy system could result in damage to some of the circuitry and/or
radio failure.

7. This document is maintained by the Frequency Spectrum Committee and the
Safety Committee that are jointly responsible for its content.

Approved by the BOD July 24, 2014.
Revised by the BOD Oct. 22, 2014

NOTE: Hard copies of this document may become outdated through revision,
cancellation or replacement with another document. To ensure that you have the latest
version approved by the Board of Directors, always check the MAAC web site under
Committees, Safety, View Committee Documents.

Daedalus66
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Re: Ic certification for canada

Post by Daedalus66 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:28 pm

That’s superseded by MAP-2, published August 2017 and available on the MAAC website. All these things are essentially just a restatement of the same situation. It’s clear what the regulations say and equally clear that there is no intention to enforce them.
The best way to bring a little bit of progress would be to make it easier to use FCC certification testing as the basis for Canadian certification. Otherwise, stick to the existing de facto policy — ignore the problem.

tomxl3
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Re: Ic certification for canada

Post by tomxl3 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:46 am

to deaconFlyer
I totally agree with the whole fcc/ic why say that fcc is no longer good enough when essentially ic is the exact same process for certification just blows my mind that over 80% of the world is covered with fcc but yet canada needs ic certification . Also from what I can gather the Canadian ic laws have always been this way and maac canada knew this all along but have just updated the map2 document to follow these laws because it stated before that "fcc or ic " was excepted now only ic why would they change it?
I say that they knew and they changed it to cover their butts !
I think that maac canada and ic canada should get together on an agreement to fcc being excepted here so we could put this to rest ounce and for all.
because any reputable RC company in the market either from overseas or here has fcc to begin with just my opinion!

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deaconFlyer
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Re: Ic certification for canada

Post by deaconFlyer » Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:41 pm

The whole process simply bogs down because it is impossible to approve literally everything that is coming out. So the "stickers" are often simply added as part of a very vague process. Remember, these are low transmitter power devices operating on a very public 2.4 mHz spectrum. It is the digital encoding that adds the security.

Case in point ... on my none FCC/ISED approved controller I must insert a module that handles the transmission. That module is FCC certified (apparently) ... so my status is now? Without the module my controller is exactly that, a programmable controller.

There are really very few transmission modules out there. I actually installed one into one of my vintage Kraft unit ... again, because the transmitter module is approved, what is the status on my mod? The whole approval process is really a kludge.

And what is the status of the receivers that send the telemetry back to the modern units? The sheer volume of equipment coming out every day from all factors of the electronics community is insane! My thermostat transmits and receives, so does my coffee pot and my fridge, and almost everything in my car. The FCC/ISED simply cannot handle the volume of testing needed and the ISED process is anything but streamlined.

I am glad that ISED has largely decided to do the practical thing and ignore the boondoggle. My fear is that MAAC, lobbying ISED, is more concerned about protecting a small part of the hobby. I used to spend countless enjoyable hours flying gliders ... which are now limited to 300 ft. in altitude. MAAC didn't even include that part of the hobby in their lobby. We have seen the group who fly FPV Racing Drones punished and lumped in with those who are flying quad camera platforms. Read the MAAC submissions on their website. Silence speaks volumes.

My mother taught me well ... "Don't poke the sleeping bear."

Daedalus66
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Ic certification for canada

Post by Daedalus66 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:54 pm

You’re mixing up two different issues. Certification of radios is an ISED matter and has nothing to do with Department of Transport rules regarding the flying of unmanned aerial vehicles (AKA model planes and drones). On the latter, by the way, MAAC has done pretty well by its members so far, getting an exemption from the new rules for them when flying at a MAAC recognized field. Let’s hope that continues in the 2018 rules.
On certification of radios, there has been real progress by MAAC working with ISED on a dual FCC/ISED certification process, meaning that a manufacturer will be able to use the same testing for both countries. A real breakthrough.
By the way, there has never been formal acceptance by Industry Canada (now ISED) of FCC certification. What there has been is a tacit acceptance by all concerned that FCC certified equipment is OK to use in Canada. That’s the current situation. The only time this issue comes up is when somebody pokes the bear. So let it hibernate for another ten years and let the guys at MAAC do their job.

tomxl3
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Re: Ic certification for canada

Post by tomxl3 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:04 pm

Ok the bear thing Lol I know it's better to leave the bear alone but not knowing when he will wake-up isn't any better!
In our clubs case it's the fact of maac insurance .
will they cover us in the event of an accident if using non certified equipment.
that's the kicker that maac canada will not answer.
for that reason our local club is banning any equipment that's non certified.
Our members are not taking kindly to this and some have already left the club!
All that maac has said is that they cannot condone the use of non certified equipment and that they cannot give me an answer to insurance !
that doesn't make me feel safe not knowing if the insurance is going to cover me or not !
I've been in contact with Maac and still no real answer yet!

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Ic certification for canada

Post by Daedalus66 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:56 pm

Nothing has changed in ten or more years with respect to the certification situation, since 2.4 came on the scene, except for the latest news about facilitating the process, and nothing is expected to. There’s no reason to think ISED will suddenly start to apply the regulations to RC equipment — 2.4 will continue to be loosely regulated even by the FCC in the USA.
As for insurance, as a matter of principle, the company won’t give assurances (so obviously MAAC can’t). But it’s notable that there have been a number of payouts in the last decade or so, and to my knowledge the issue of radio certification has never been raised as a reason for denying a claim.
I would hope clubs would be able to understand the situation.

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deaconFlyer
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Re: Ic certification for canada

Post by deaconFlyer » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:08 am

Thank you ... yes I realize I was mixing two issues, just I have really lost my trust in MAAC to protect the hobby I have loved for over 40 years. Showed up at what was my field and you can't fly with your Taranis because of bias, certification, insurance, ignorance ... choose one or all. Showed up with a foamie or a racing quad and you will not believe the reticence. Now there is no field anymore and I am back to the farmer who lets me fly over his land.

I pay my membership but am now starting to ask why ... if the insurance is not valid and there is no space to legally fly within 150 km, why?

Read the new TC Regs and ask, who is really speaking for the totality of the hobby? They don't know the difference between a racing quad and a camera drone, a 450g-3D-slab foamie or a 30kg-200+kph-AV gas jet. Read the MAAC submissions. Sad.

Sorry if this seems like a downer, but I also had to get a Pleaure Craft Operator license to put my tiny boat out to fish. I don't have mich faith in government regulations.

Anybody remember when you had to pass a Morse code test to license your radio? Guess I'm old!

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Re: Ic certification for canada

Post by Daedalus66 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:02 am

I recall when 27.255 MHz was the one frequency we could use without a ham license. We’ve come a way since then.
I happen to think MAAC has done quite well in representing our interests. I’m crossing my fingers waiting for the next move from DOT.
Not sure why you think the insurance is invalid. The important thing is to have the owner’s approval if you fly at other than a MAAC registered field.

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Re: Ic certification for canada

Post by ARMAGUEDON » Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:44 am

tomxl3 wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:04 pm
Ok the bear thing Lol I know it's better to leave the bear alone but not knowing when he will wake-up isn't any better!
In our clubs case it's the fact of maac insurance .
will they cover us in the event of an accident if using non certified equipment.
that's the kicker that maac canada will not answer.
for that reason our local club is banning any equipment that's non certified.
Our members are not taking kindly to this and some have already left the club!
All that maac has said is that they cannot condone the use of non certified equipment and that they cannot give me an answer to insurance !
that doesn't make me feel safe not knowing if the insurance is going to cover me or not !
I've been in contact with Maac and still no real answer yet!
ok no worries, have you seen the MAAC review and how many taranis there are? I can not count. problem solved

tomxl3
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Re: Ic certification for canada

Post by tomxl3 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:58 pm

Well at least I contacted frsky and their response was that the x10 and x10s are supposed to have certification for IC/ISED by end of April so my ? Is what about the rest x9d etc... another question is do all frsky transmitters use the same transmitter internal module if so all they would have to do is certify the module because it is the part that's transmitting the signal and all frisky would be covered if I'm wrong please respond?

Daedalus66
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Re: Ic certification for canada

Post by Daedalus66 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:08 pm

MAAC has just concluded arrangements with DOT to facilitate approval in Canada in parallel with FCC certification. This should make it much easier for manufacturers. I don’t have any further details yet.

tomxl3
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Re: Ic certification for canada

Post by tomxl3 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:31 pm

If I understand what you're saying is that FCC Will be good to use or they still need ISED certification but Will be easier to get certification with FCC certification I know that they were in talks with IC/ISED canada but last I heard of two weeks ago was that they are working with them to make It easier for manufacturers that have FCC to get ISED certification so at that time all manufacturers would still have to get certification for ISED .
FCC would just aid in the process.

tomxl3
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Re: Ic certification for canada

Post by tomxl3 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:33 pm

If they would allow FCC to be good would be great!
Because as stated in earlier post that would cover almost 80% of the manufacturers on the market at least the major brands👍

Daedalus66
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Ic certification for canada

Post by Daedalus66 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:58 pm

They clearly will NOT accept FCC approval. This has been asked for previously and turned down. What they apparently have agreed to is some system which would allow the FCC certification data to be used for a Canadian application, thus avoiding duplication of testing.
They have made it clear over the years that they have no interest in enforcing the requirements. So while they won’t formally accept FCC certification, they have no problem with people using unapproved gear, unless it interferes with other users.
A much more questionable situation is created by the many relatively high powered FPV transmitters being used by people without the required Amateur Radio licence. But it’s not likely they will pursue that one either.

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Re: Ic certification for canada

Post by tomxl3 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:15 pm

Ok that was what I thought !🙂 guess time will tell to see which manufacturers comply or not at least one as of now is in the process frsky hats off to them👍

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