[SOLVED] Taranis X9E + X6R, random telemetry losses

Hardware help and support for the FrSky Taranis
Pax1601
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Re: Taranis X9E + X6R, random telemetry losses

Post by Pax1601 »

Hello everybody,

I have finally been able to head back to the field, terrible weather in Italy during September.
I've been flying with my dad this morning and logged the whole thing. The random telemetry losses appeared again, as you can see from the attached log. What I find odd is that:
- we only had telemetry losses while flying with master-slave. My dad was using the X9E as master, always pointing at the plane, while I was using the QX7 as slave, flying the bird. No telemetry losses when he was flying alone. However, no significant different in the RSSI levels can be seen between normal and master-slave operation;
- I retained control of the plane during such losses, and this time I can confirm it as I went full ailerons left and right after hearing the "Telemetry loss" signal from the "Bitching Betty";
- losses appeared to happen always in the same position, right in front of us, I'd say 200 meters away, but that can be a coincidence as the other time we had the same problems when the plane was in a totally different position, few meters in front of us;
- as you can see from the log, we had many many losses in a short time span, around 3-4 minutes, then nothing. All was concentrated in that small period;
- the longer periods with no telemetry are around 2 seconds long;
- the radio and the receiver have never been turned off the entire time, nor the battery has been changed.

Can you please help me sort this thing? Again, as I've always retained control, there was no immediate danger, but this behavior is not exactly "relaxing".

Thank you very much!

Davide
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jhsa
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Re: Taranis X9E + X6R, random telemetry losses

Post by jhsa »

You said your dad was pointing the antenna at the model. Does that mean he was pointing the tip of the antenna, or the side of the antenna at the model?

I believe that depending on the firmware you have installed on the radio, the RSSI might hold the last value received, or not.

For example, I use ersky9x on all my radios, before it used to hold the last value, making it difficult to see if telemetry has been lost or not, and generating confusion in hour heads.
This behaviour was changed a while ago and now if telemetry is lost the value drops to zero. I believe this makes much more sense. :)
I don't know which firmware you have installed on your radios though. I don't even know if openTX still has the old behaviour when telemetry is lost. I just posted this because it could probably explain why you are still seeing RSSI when the radio reports "telemetry lost".

João

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Re: Taranis X9E + X6R, random telemetry losses

Post by MikeB »

Is the QX7 module transmitting? If so, it could be the signal from the QX7 is overloading the input circuitry of the X9E at times.
If you haven't already tried this, try having the internal Tx module turned off in the QX7.

João: The X9E has a fixed antenna that "points" sideways from the handle. If the Tx is "pointing" at the aircraft, then the antenna is "sideways on", so should be good.

Mike.
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jhsa
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Re: Taranis X9E + X6R, random telemetry losses

Post by jhsa »

Ahh, ok.. thanks Mike.. I obviously don't know the radio very well, sorry about that. :)

Another reason why I wouldn't buy one. I like radios where I can turn the antenna.
When testing the multi module and the DIY Frsky compatible receiver, I have found and learnt some interesting stuff about RF and antennas. One of the things I've learnt is that antenna polarisation plays a big role on the signal strength and quality. I could easily decrease or increase the signal by just moving the receiver or transmitter antennas. You can easily see this when in range check mode. I have also found out that the best antenna position for overall model flying is with the TX antenna pointing to the ground at an angle. Then the weakest signal is on the ground right in front of you, and towards your head, while everywhere else has the best signal. Well, we don't fly the models right in front of your feet and also right behind our heads normally :)
With the antenna completely horizontal, like on X9E, you have the weakest signal towards the sides. So if you make flybys, or while landing or taking off, you might have to rotate your body to follow the model. This is even more critical with single antenna receivers, or receivers without antenna diversity..
So, being able to adjust the antenna according to the way you hold the radio is very important in my opinion.
This explains why I said that I would never buy a radio that didn't let me adjust the antenna :) ;) :D

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Re: Taranis X9E + X6R, random telemetry losses (Antenna Position Makes Better Signal)

Post by bob195558 »

Have the Antenna Position to be at an angle because signal is stronger coming from the side of the antenna.
Antenna Position Makes Better Signal
Antenna Position Makes Better Signal
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Re: Taranis X9E + X6R, random telemetry losses

Post by jhsa »

Yes, but horizontal is not always better :) That is what I meant with my post above :)

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Re: Taranis X9E + X6R, random telemetry losses

Post by bob195558 »

I place my transmitter antenna at about a 45 degree angle.
Pointing the tip (top) of the antenna at the model is less signal strength.
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Re: Taranis X9E + X6R, random telemetry losses

Post by jhsa »

What I meant above is that for normal model flying the antenna placement as shown on the picture might be the best one, because you have a bigger area covered by the sides of the antenna where the signal is stronger.. the tip of the antenna (weakest signal) is pointing at the ground.

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Re: Taranis X9E + X6R, random telemetry losses

Post by bob195558 »

Yes, that will work. :)
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Re: Taranis X9E + X6R, random telemetry losses

Post by jhsa »

will work? ;) If that doesn't, than nothing does :mrgreen:

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Re: Taranis X9E + X6R, random telemetry losses

Post by Pax1601 »

MikeB wrote: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:07 am Is the QX7 module transmitting? If so, it could be the signal from the QX7 is overloading the input circuitry of the X9E at times.
If you haven't already tried this, try having the internal Tx module turned off in the QX7.

João: The X9E has a fixed antenna that "points" sideways from the handle. If the Tx is "pointing" at the aircraft, then the antenna is "sideways on", so should be good.

Mike.
Just a follow up on this post. You solved the issue Mike! ;) I have disabled the internal module of the QX7 and the problem is gone! Many hours of flying since then and never ever a telemetry loss! I've marked the post as "SOLVED" for future reference :)

Thank you all for your help!

Davide
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Taranis X9D Plus signall loss

Post by sacalu83 »

Hi, I usualy don't jump and open new topics so I'll just post here.I'll try to be short but also providing as much info as I have so bear with me please. I'm heaving problems with my Taranis X9D Plus EU mostly during range check but it also happend once during flight. I have two rx's on my biger planes for safety reasons, X8R's-EU, each one heaving half of the servos, it's own switch and accu (Life 1100mA). The telemetry is set active on rx1 and disabled on rx 2. I've flown with dual rx for years, and now for about one year with the Taranis. So..in the first seconds of range check, no mather if I'm at 3m or 25m, I see the RSSI dropping at zero and get the telemetry lost alert. The Tx settings are D16, channels 1-16, same rx number for both rx. Antenas at 90 degree both horizontal.
- This happens mostly to one rx (in one plane to rx1 the one with telemetry, in the second plane to rx2) but there were times when both rx stop working
- Although the red led on the rx is flashing when RSSI drops to zero, if I get close to it the link is restored and green led it's back on. So it is not the rx lock out type caused by ignition or other factors from witch the rx recovers only after restart, as discussed on some threads.
- The link it's restored by: getting closer to the plane or restart the Tx or restart the Rx.
- I've re binded the rx's but nothing. Changing the telemnetry from one rx to another doesn't solve it.
- After reestablishing the link, and exit range mode, if I go again in range mode, the link to one rx drops again somethimes, but it doesn't drop again if I remain in the range mode, after restoring the link(by getting closer).
- This link drop to rx1 in one model and rx2 in second model, happened at tests in one of about 3-5 range test entering, it doesn't always happend.
- It's like one of the rx looses signal when the Tx is in a certain position from the rx. In the house I had to keep the tip or tail of the tx antena towards the plane to loose link, outside, it doesn't matter because at a few metters it drops, about a third of the times..sometimes on one rx, others on both.
- One of the plane is 50cc gas, the other is electric, but I find that irelevant, just feelt the need to point it out, because the test where made mostly in the house, with the engines off. And there was not a lack of courent because I didn't even moved the controls in some tests when the link dropped, and accu are fine.
- I thought it's something about range test program, but one time the plane was at a few meters in flight and I heard telemetry lost. I didn't see anything wrong at the plane because the second rx was working, as it always does during house tests (in range mode), and probably the link was restored rapidly to the first rx also(the one with telemetry).
- Tried to power on only one rx, the one that drops the link in most cases, the link was lost. So it's not an interference between the two rx's.
- Also tried to restore the link to one rx by turning off the other rx, it did not.
I can't tell what it is, any advice is wellcome, since I'm the ony one around with RC and no one to ask. :? :(
Video link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybKOmH6PA7U
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Re: Taranis X9D Plus signall loss

Post by Carbo »

sacalu83 wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:15 pm- Tried to power on only one rx, the one that drops the link in most cases, the link was lost. So it's not an interference between the two rx's.
Hi. Starting with this obsevration, I would reduce complexity of the setup. Can you rangetest this RX with only a battery connected? Place it 1m above ground on a wooden table or similar and walk away with TX in rangetestmode and log telemetry. RX and TX antenna always in optimal position to each other. Every 10m distance switch rangetest off and on again to get distance markers in the log. You should be able to walk with your hardware about 100m, before link is lost. If not, it is presumably a hardware issue. To be sure, you can upload your logfile to discuss it.
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Re: [SOLVED] Taranis X9E + X6R, random telemetry losses

Post by sacalu83 »

Thank you! This is just what I was thinking to do. Except the log telemetry that I have to find out how to do. I will take out to the field all the X8R and connect one at a time to a charged Life pack. I can bring a woden table, because i take my planes my hand to the field about 1 km,even the 50cc 8k and a 13kg backpack with all the goodies needed.. don't need a car..yet. :D So on a aluminum tripod that has the plastic platform on top I supose it's not that good? What I don't understand is if it's a Tx problem why don't all the rx "feel" it, and if it's a rx problem how could half of them be bad?! I'll do the test and see... The manual states range test at 1m or similar from the ground, well not all have a table in the middle of nowhere so I've always done the range test with the model on the ground, about 20-30 cm to the rx..so how should that work then? In your oppininion I've mounted ok the rx antenas, or one should be vertical? I've keept the edges of the paddles horizontaly.
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Re: [SOLVED] Taranis X9E + X6R, random telemetry losses

Post by Carbo »

sacalu83 wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:19 amSo on a aluminum tripod that has the plastic platform on top I supose it's not that good?
I would use a wooden board addiionally, to bring RX and antennas at least 20cm away from metal. This together with 1m above ground position will give comparable results.
The position of the antennas does not really matter, just keep them at about 90° to each other and as far away from conductive parts as possible (metal, carbon, wires). There will always be "weak" spots, when the antennas are shielded from the engine or the battery or carbon parts, but this will never kill the FrSky link within line of sight.
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Re: [SOLVED] Taranis X9E + X6R, random telemetry losses

Post by bob195558 »

This may not have anything to do with the problem, but is good info to help understand better what we are not able to see.
The Fresnel Zone explained: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCVd3QGQhKU

I have never combine two X8R to become a 16CH receiver.
I do use with my Taranis-x9d (not the pro) erSkyTx (was called erSky9x) firmware (http://www.er9x.com/),
which allow me to use two XJT modules to there separate receivers.
Using Internal and External modules at the same time choosing one of them to do the telemetry,
which then allows me to have access to 16 Channels.
I have also change the switches on the external XJT module that converts it to a DJT module using it for the telemetry (D8R-II plus receiver).
I believe OpenTX firmware can still not do this.
So maybe an option that you may want to consider.
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Re: Taranis X9D Plus signall loss

Post by sacalu83 »

Carbo wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:44 am Hi. Starting with this obsevration, I would reduce complexity of the setup. Can you rangetest this RX with only a battery connected? Place it 1m above ground on a wooden table or similar and walk away with TX in rangetestmode and log telemetry. RX and TX antenna always in optimal position to each other. Every 10m distance switch rangetest off and on again to get distance markers in the log. You should be able to walk with your hardware about 100m, before link is lost. If not, it is presumably a hardware issue. To be sure, you can upload your logfile to discuss it.
I've made my first log file after setting the first row in Global Functions: ON SdLogs 1.0s and hit discover new sensors in the Telemetry page. Is the right way? The file is an Excel file that I would like to understand. "Working with log files" on Open Tx University didn't helped me much. I'll try to atach the file here. During the log: I've started the Tx-Rx two times, moved servos, enter the range mode (in the house, botom of antena towards the plane, 3m distance), received in a few seconds telemetry lost alert, and zero RSSI, lost of signal to Rx, recovered the signal by placiong the long part of antena towards the plane. I wait for the weather to go on the field with the rxs out of the plane and test them. Until that can someone interpret my log file and advice me if I've obtained the right kind of file tipe that would help me log the field tests? I need to know if this is the right way to make Telemetry logs so I can correctly log the process when going outside. Thank you very much for the answers and your time, God bless you all.
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Re: Taranis X9D Plus signall loss

Post by Carbo »

sacalu83 wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:20 pmI've made my first log file after setting the first row in Global Functions: ON SdLogs 1.0s and hit discover new sensors in the Telemetry page. Is the right way?
Some remarks: I prefer 0.2s interval, because of better time resolution. Not sure, why RxBT (Rx-voltage) is missing in the csv, it should be discovered too during a sensor search. If you do a sensor search, please rename or delete the existing logfile from the same day, or it becomes unreadable for Companion. I have modified your logfile by deleting about 800 lines and adding the RSSI label and shifting the other labels. If you compare both logfiles in OpenOffice, you will see the difference.

I have no explanation for the two lockouts, which can be seen in the log. Probably a hardware issue. It is always a chance, to flash the latest firmware, rebind and try again. I never saw a failure like yours, eventually someone else?
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Taranis and X8Rs field test and log files

Post by sacalu83 »

I've made some field tests to 4 X8R rxs and Taranis. If someone is wiling to read them please do so. Nothing unusual I think until test 1C. Logs are below.

- Test: CAP_232-2019-07-05_1
Rx1 (that has telemetry on), antenas at 90, both horizontal, woden tripod over 1m, 5v from a LiFe 1100mA trough a SBEC. Tx in range mode and antena always with the long side towards the Rx. Walked away from Rx at about 1m/sec. in the direction oposite to servos in the tray (see picture), then came back. At 60m 60 RSSI, at 100-150m 40 RSSI, lost signal at 230m.

- Test: CAP_232-2019-07-05_1A
Remade the first test. (It seems to be to large to upload).
- Test: CAP_232-2019-07-05_1B
walked in the direction oposite to accu in the tray. 60m - 60RSSI, 90m - 50 RSSI, 130m - 40 RSSI, 200 m signal lost. Nothing bad in these tests until now, I think because I didn't restart range mode at small distance, as shown in the folowing.

-Test: CAP_232-2019-07-05_1C
At every 10m exit and re enter the range mode. At first re entering at 10m telemetry lost (signal lost)! Regain signal by exiting the range mode.

- Test: CAP_232-2019-07-05_1D
This test showed me that at about 23m from the rx there is a drop in signal to about 40-50 RSSI than it grows again to 60 as I go further, and gradualy decrease then to about 50 RSSI at 90-100m.

- Test: CAP_232-2019-07-05_1E
A similar test, with one of the rx antena vertical. Instead of both horizontal. Similar results of signal strenght.

- Test: CAP_232-2019-07-05_2
Testing the second rx of the same plane. Re entering range mode each 10m, at 30m signal lost! At 90 m - 50 RSSI, then as I got closer again, at about 20m tried some range mode and signal lost two times! Telemetry lost, RSSI 0. Walked on the side of the servos, the signal is weaker here heaving the servos between rx and tx, at 23-25m 40 RSSI but then grows back a litle as I go further.

- Test: CAP_232-2019-07-05_2A
Same rx, nr2 but with the telemetry off, as it works in the plane. Folowing the servo arms for signal lost as I don't have telemetry. At about 15m it loses signal, regains it as I get closer at 2-8m from the rx.
At 100m stil have signal.

-Test: CAP_232-2019-07-05_2B
Remade test 2A - similar results.

-Test :Carbon_Cub-2019-07-05_1
Rx1 from the second plane. In both directions at 15m after re initiate range mode it loses signal, than regain it if I aproach at 2-8m. At other distances I couldn't lose the signal after multiple range mode enter. At 100m RSSI 50.

-Test: CarbOn_Cub-2019-07-05_2
Second rx from the same plane. First the telemetry was switched of (because that's how this rx works in the plane, being the second rx in that plane) Then the telemetry was switched on to see any diferences. While I was making a rule out of this 15m dead zone and blame it on the Fresnel zone, where the lenght of the direct signal wave encounters the one reflected from the ground and neutralises itself, I've got signal loss when entering range mode at 5m and also at about 40m!

-Test: Carbon_Cub-2019-07-05_3
Rx1 (telemetry on) and Rx2 from the same plane, working togheter as in the plane.
Signal was lost eighter on one, and on both Rx in range mode, at the same 10-30m distances. Just as I get at the field with the plane, no mather where I enter range mode, at 3m or 30m, sometimes, everything drops dead. Then exit the range mode, and fly ...for about a year now.

Telemetry lost (signal lost) always happened right after enetering the range mode. And as I discovered, it happened when the RSSI started higher. Like if I enter the range mode, at 30m from the rx, where RSSI normaly is at 60-70, if it starts at 91 I know it will lose signal, than in 2 sec it drops to 60,40,0! If it starts at, let's say 76, it drops a little and stays. I don't know if this matters.
During all of the tests I didn't experienced any signal or telemetry lost while not in range mode, only during range mode. Also, I fly electric planes with the orange module atached to Taranis, and I get 30m during range check. I've tryed to be as short as I could. Any thoughts? I'm grateful if you can read the log files and maybe get to a conclusion. Thank you!
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CAP_232-2019-07-05_1B.csv
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CAP_232-2019-07-05_1.csv
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Re: [SOLVED] Taranis X9E + X6R, random telemetry losses

Post by bob195558 »

There also is a possibility that your Taranis transmitter module is randomly failing.
Before the Taranis x9d-Plus model, with it's fixes can out, the older Taranis x9d radio module with it's internal XJT module,
a few of them would randomly fail breaking connection with the receiver.
I had one, which is very hard to catch it when it only happens randomly.
I sent it in and they replace the internal XJT, and it has not failed since.

Not sure if this is where your troubles are as they have fixed the internal XJT modules with the Taranis x9d-Plus radio models.

I was able to prove it because I had two Taranis x9d radios and set them up the same.
The Taranis with the bad internal module randomly failed
and the Taranis with the good internal module never failed.
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Re: [SOLVED] Taranis X9E + X6R, random telemetry losses

Post by sacalu83 »

I thought about being the module too although to my logic it should stop both rx not only one, if the module crashes. The fact that it happens at certain distances in most cases, makes me think about radio signal wave lenght or something afected by distance. Second, why doesn't reestablish the link other than at very close distance of 2-8m..this has to do with signal strenght I think. It's like in some cases, entering the range mode, the signal is way lower than it should be, thus loosing connection. I think that at 2m I would never lose it while entering the range mode..and this has to do with the module probably. It only happens when entering range mode, in the first 3 sec. If 3 sec have passed, then it's ok. Like a software bug regarding range mode.. Should I buy a new xjt module? Or just continue flying as I did for a year now..
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Re: [SOLVED] Taranis X9E + X6R, random telemetry losses

Post by Carbo »

I did not work through all logfles, some do not contain any RSSI data, but there seems to be at least one faulty RX:
Cap1.jpg
This one shows, how it should look like:
Cap0.jpg
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Re: [SOLVED] Taranis X9E + X6R, random telemetry losses

Post by MikeB »

Possibly one receiver has a faulty antenna, so only one is working. If the working one then gets masked (or is end on to the Tx) you would lose the signal.

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Re: [SOLVED] Taranis X9E + X6R, random telemetry losses

Post by bob195558 »

So then a question maybe asked, has it always the same RX failing every time ?
Er9x on 9x radio, with Smartieparts Programmer and TelemetrEZ Board.
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Re: [SOLVED] Taranis X9E + X6R, random telemetry losses

Post by bob195558 »

Good point Mike. not all antennas are the same.
I have tested antennas and many do not work with equal results.
Maybe when the RX is shifting to the other antenna (other 90 degree position) the connection then is failing ?
Or a bad antenna connection.
Er9x on 9x radio, with Smartieparts Programmer and TelemetrEZ Board.
ErSky9x on Taranis, Sky9x, 9Xtreme radios.
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Re: [SOLVED] Taranis X9E + X6R, random telemetry losses

Post by sacalu83 »

MikeB wrote: Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:02 am Possibly one receiver has a faulty antenna, so only one is working. If the working one then gets masked (or is end on to the Tx) you would lose the signal.

Mike
And the other 3 receivers? That all had lost signal at 5-40m, mostly at 15-20m, right at the range mode activation in two directions tested, what about them?

Thank you Carbo for the logs. The second you made, is probably one of the first test, in wich I entered range mode and walked until signal was lost at about 200m so no interuptions. At the end of the day all 4 rx had logs like the first you made,which you say it shows a bad rx, in which at close distance, re entering range mode the signal was lost. Maybe if I would buy another 10 X8Rs I would bet that, close range, from 3-5 range mode activations I can get a signal/telemetry lost. Let me say that again, I have 4 X8R that at close range, when in range mode one of 1 to 5 times, they get signal lost, all of them. If I had 10 X8R It would probably be the same thing..
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Re: [SOLVED] Taranis X9E + X6R, random telemetry losses

Post by sacalu83 »

bob195558 wrote: Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:06 am So then a question maybe asked, has it always the same RX failing every time ?
"..Testing the second rx of the first plane. Re entering range mode each 10m, at 30m signal lost" That is another rx

"...Rx1 from the second plane. In both directions at 15m after re initiate range mode it loses signal" And another one..

"...Second rx from the second plane..I've got signal loss when entering range mode at 5m and also at about 40m." And another one..
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Re: [SOLVED] Taranis X9E + X6R, random telemetry losses

Post by bob195558 »

Distance is not always why we may have signal lost and/or a hardware failures.
Do you have other objects around you where you are doing your distance testing ?
Things like an interstate highway, other strong transmitters, hills, buildings, metal fencing and so on.
Er9x on 9x radio, with Smartieparts Programmer and TelemetrEZ Board.
ErSky9x on Taranis, Sky9x, 9Xtreme radios.
3D-Printing: (https://openrcforums.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=129).
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Re: [SOLVED] Taranis X9E + X6R, random telemetry losses

Post by sacalu83 »

Yes I have a two way european road at about 300m with about 10-20 cars per minute passing. The hils are all around me at distances between 3 km to the N and E, and more to the W and S. The city with a gas station, and a mall is at about 5-600m so not so far away, I don't have fences. Actualy you can spot the are in one of my videos at minute 6:30 and later on..it can be seen the road, red mall, hils. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mETIrYr ... ex=14&t=7s
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Re: [SOLVED] Taranis X9E + X6R, random telemetry losses

Post by bob195558 »

Really Great video !
I like it a lot.
The area where you are flying looks good.
It is possible to have bad receivers and/or antennas.

Some equipment that maybe a help

Immersion RC RF Power Meter: (http://www.immersionrc.com/downloads/ma ... Manual.pdf).

RF Explorer 6G Combo: (http://j3.rf-explorer.com/40-rfe/articl ... cification).
Er9x on 9x radio, with Smartieparts Programmer and TelemetrEZ Board.
ErSky9x on Taranis, Sky9x, 9Xtreme radios.
3D-Printing: (https://openrcforums.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=129).

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