Frsky - Europe needs the D8 protocol and D-Recievers

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AlexC
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Re: Frsky - Europe needs the D8 protocol and D-Recievers

Post by AlexC »

On the rear cover of a well known UK model magazine there is an advert for the Hitec Flash 8 radio.
To quote a part of the sales info.

"Triple 2.4Ghz protocols ensure the Flash 8 is compatible with previous and current Hitec air receivers"

It would seem that Hitec is looking after it's existing customers investments by making it's new EU transmitters fully backward compatible. Shame FrSky couldn't have done this.
I have around 30 D series receivers and if I cannot use them with the about to be released Horus then I'm afraid I won't be tempted to buy one.

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Re: Frsky - Europe needs the D8 protocol and D-Recievers

Post by jhsa »

Doesn't Horus have internal and external module capability?

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Re: Frsky - Europe needs the D8 protocol and D-Recievers

Post by AlexC »

jhsa wrote:Doesn't Horus have internal and external module capability?

João
I use the external module bay on my existing Taranis for a Spektrum module and if the Horus does indeed have an external module bay then that is what it would be used for.
The Hitec solution is better thought out, selecting the protocol from the transmitter. The Frsky solution seems to be; Buy a Frsky external module to attach to your new transmitter in order to use Frsky receivers...Really?
That is if you can get a module in the UK that is not EU firmware already in which case you will still not be able to use D receivers!
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Re: Frsky - Europe needs the D8 protocol and D-Recievers

Post by andrewju »

You can always update the firmware in RF module (or in receiver, or even both...) to get the necessary protocol supported. At least that is the case with XJT and X-series receivers so far. Not sure if Horus will be any different in this regard.

Maybe it is not the best solution, but it works.
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Re: Frsky - Europe needs the D8 protocol and D-Recievers

Post by jhsa »

Hmm, very strange Hitec making the radio compatible with a protocol that is FORBIDDEN in Europe? Won't that make their equipment illegal? That's the reason frsky can't sell current D equipment in Europe. Because it is not allowed. It is not legal.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

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Re: Frsky - Europe needs the D8 protocol and D-Recievers

Post by KAL »

Question: Is it illegal to use the old protocol or is it illegal to sell new TX that uses the old protocol?
If the second choice is true why shouldn't a new RX be able to listen to the old protocol?

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Re: Frsky - Europe needs the D8 protocol and D-Recievers

Post by jhsa »

KAL wrote:Question: Is it illegal to use the old protocol or is it illegal to sell new TX that uses the old protocol?
Good question.. I think that it is illegal to sell equipment with the old protocol, but equipment bought before January 2015 can be used as far as I understand.
The thing is if for example the Hitec radio is able to bind and use the old equipment with the old protocol, then it has to use (transmit) the old protocol to talk with the receivers, right? And that might be illegal..
That is why the XJT module doesn't support D series when bought in Europe.
I think Frsky could just adapt the modules and receivers firmware to match the new legislation requirements. I guess it is easier just to remove support though :(
If the second choice is true why shouldn't a new RX be able to listen to the old protocol?
Because a telemetry receiver also transmits? ;)

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Re: Frsky - Europe needs the D8 protocol and D-Recievers

Post by KAL »

jhsa wrote:Because a telemetry receiver also transmits? ;)
Oops, good point! :oops:
With the same protocol, I suppose.

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Re: Frsky - Europe needs the D8 protocol and D-Recievers

Post by jhsa »

yep ;) :)

That's how I don't know how Hitec can be legal?? Or is it? ;)
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Re: Frsky - Europe needs the D8 protocol and D-Recievers

Post by Kilrah »

The only possible explanation would be that Hitec's old protocols happened to already satisfy the new regs, either because they found out about them early on and took account of them or just out of luck.
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Re: Frsky - Europe needs the D8 protocol and D-Recievers

Post by jhsa »

Do you really believe that? :)

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Re: Frsky - Europe needs the D8 protocol and D-Recievers

Post by Kilrah »

Yep, the regs were actually posted many years before coming into effect.
Unfortunately at that time FrSky wasn't yet even thinking about being distributed internationally, and probably didn't do all the research they could have done about what different parts of the world required.
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Re: Frsky - Europe needs the D8 protocol and D-Recievers

Post by jhsa »

Sounds logic..
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Re: Frsky - Europe needs the D8 protocol and D-Recievers

Post by MikeB »

FrSky have just released the LBT firmware for the XJT, X8R, X6R and X4R. It is supposed to improve the RF link performance.
What they haven't mentioned is that an XJT with this firmware supports D8 mode :P

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Re: Frsky - Europe needs the D8 protocol and D-Recievers

Post by Kilrah »

Like the previous one - you're just not supposed to use it...
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Re: Frsky - Europe needs the D8 protocol and D-Recievers

Post by LutzB »

MikeB wrote:FrSky have just released the LBT firmware for the XJT, X8R, X6R and X4R. It is supposed to improve the RF link performance.
What they haven't mentioned is that an XJT with this firmware supports D8 mode :P

Mike.
Do you have any info about this firmware? What can it do compared to the normal (non) EU one?
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Re: Frsky - Europe needs the D8 protocol and D-Recievers

Post by HC1969 »

I am also very interested in it!
http://rc.emiter.hu/ (MegaSound 9X, GCL-2, FrSky-RSSI-DAC, etc.) Keress fel!
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Re: Frsky - Europe needs the D8 protocol and D-Recievers

Post by bob195558 »

MikeB wrote:FrSky have just released the LBT firmware for the XJT, X8R, X6R and X4R. It is supposed to improve the RF link performance.
What they haven't mentioned is that an XJT with this firmware supports D8 mode :P
I just flashed an XJT internal module in a Taranis Plus (ersky9x firmware).
The XJT was already bound to a D8R-II, and this still works.
I then tested binding to the D8R-II and that also worked.
I did try binding to non-updated X8R, and that failed. I'll try updating one of those later.
Mike.
Hi Mike,
This new LBT firmware is for the FrSky-Europe protocols so that the D-Series receivers can be used in Europe. (Edit: A)
Any more info about LBT firmware (supposed to improve the RF link performance) between the XJT module
and the X8R, X6R, X4R and the D-Series receivers ? :?:

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Re: Frsky - Europe needs the D8 protocol and D-Recievers

Post by Kilrah »

The change only affects X series. There has been no change to D.
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Re: Frsky - Europe needs the D8 protocol and D-Recievers

Post by pchristy »

I have recently installed the LBT firmware on both an X9E and an X9D. Both systems retained D8 and LR modes after flashing. The new firmware shows a significant improvement in the robustness of the signal, as it is no longer constrained by the 10% "Media Utilisation Factor" that applies to non-adaptive systems under ETSI-1.8.1.

How long FrSky will be able to supply this with the "old" protocols still active is a matter of conjecture. ETSI-1.9.1 is waiting in the wings (due for implementation in November), and a new EU directive will make it illegal to supply equipment that can be flashed with non EU firmware later this year (around June, IIRC). However, there is a "grace" period of 12 months to allow existing stocks to pass through the system. It ought to be a relatively simple matter to supply the firmware with D8, but ensure that this mode is inhibited in "new build" systems. This would enable owners of older equipment to continue using the older protocols (quite legally), whilst new equipment would have that ability disabled regardless of the firmware.

To make D8 EU compliant would, I suspect, require so much alteration to the protocol that it would no longer be D8 as we know it! In fact, it would probably be very akin to D16! Having said that, current X series receivers can be bound to D8 transmitters, and seem to work quite happily in that mode. Again, this may change in future due to the new regulations as above.

Looking at the signal on a spectrum analyzer, the new LBT firmware produces a signal that looks much more like the much loved D8 system than the earlier, non-adaptive D16. I've flown a test "hack" model with it, and the range is excellent. I nearly lost the model once, not because of any radio issues, but because it was so far away that I became dis-orientated! At that point the RSSI was still showing around 60dB!

The most irritating feature of all this is that the regulations seem to be changing far too frequently, for no good reason. For a start, the 2.4 GHz band is un-licensed, un-protected, and not guaranteed to be fit for any specific purpose! We use it at our own risk. The only cases of interference of which I am aware were cause by individuals using it for analogue video transmissions using illegally high power levels! I am not aware of any cases of interference caused by RC or WiFi equipment, other than when WiFi users stick with the default settings for their routers in congested urban environments. And that only causes a reduction in the range of the WiFi signal, not affecting RC systems. The new regulations do nothing to address operator ignorance!

In short, this appears to be a case of regulation for the sake of regulation, with no benefit for either the manufacturers or consumers. The whole point of spread spectrum is to allow signals to "overlap" without catastrophic failure. Yes, if by chance two transmitters happen to occupy the same channel at precisely the same time, that packet of information will be lost. But the data rates and hopping frequencies are so high that the effects of this would be imperceptible to the end users, and the whole nature of the signal makes a repeat within a given time-frame statistically unlikely.

The bureaucrats are trying to fix a problem that simply doesn't exist in the real world, to the the detriment of us all. Perhaps we need to "storm the Bastille" to put these people in their place....! ;-)

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Re: Frsky - Europe needs the D8 protocol and D-Recievers

Post by Kilrah »

pchristy wrote: The bureaucrats are trying to fix a problem that simply doesn't exist in the real world, to the the detriment of us all. Perhaps we need to "storm the Bastille" to put these people in their place....! ;-)
No, given they know nothing about these things they're just following what "industry experts" tell them is needed. Those only "forget to mention" that it isn't needed for actual technical reasons, but just so they can declare existing gear obsolete and use the change to force people into having to buy new stuff from them. That's how business works nowadays.
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Re: Frsky - Europe needs the D8 protocol and D-Recievers

Post by jhsa »

Try to build and sell an electronic product that lasts 25 years and see what happens. ;) :)
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Re: Frsky - Europe needs the D8 protocol and D-Recievers

Post by pchristy »

I still have my Grundig Variophon/Varioton set in full working order (1965). I still have my Bonner Digimite-8, in working order (1967). Furthermore, both are still legal to use. I'm not sure about the Digimite, which might fail on spurious emissions, but I believe the Grundig set would still pass today's legal requirements! Those requirements have not changed in decades. So why is 2.4 GHz suddenly so different?

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Re: Frsky - Europe needs the D8 protocol and D-Recievers

Post by Carbo »

In the companion build options you can check/uncheck the eu option. Unchecked the user can select additionally D- and LR-mode. Is this a legal procedure when you operate the system in EU with the LBT-Firmware in the TX? I presume, if you have a pre EU-Firmware system it is legal. What is with newer TX, that came with EU-Firmware?

If it is not legal, is the hurdle not a bit too low, to become illegal?

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Re: Frsky - Europe needs the D8 protocol and D-Recievers

Post by Kilrah »

Compliance and availability of protocols according to region is the module firmware's job.
The OpenTX option is only a display thing that was introduced so that someone who has EU module firmware would not see and be able to choose a protocol in the menus that would not work because the module doesn't allow it.
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Re: Frsky - Europe needs the D8 protocol and D-Recievers

Post by pchristy »

Bernd: If the transmitter was manufactured (note: *manufactured* - not sold or bought) before January 2015, then it is perfectly legal to use D8 and LR-mode even if you have installed the LBT firmware. If it was *manufactured* after January 2015, then you are only supposed to use EU compliant firmware for the RF modules. It is, of course, completely impossible to enforce this regulation! As a result, there is a new EU directive coming into force this June which states that any equipment *manufactured* after June 2016 must be designed so that it is not possible to load non-compliant firmware. As with the earlier regulation, there is a 12 month grace period to allow existing stocks to pass through the system.

The whole thing is a complete farce, and seems to have been designed purely to justify the existence of the regulator. It certainly brings no benefits to either the end users or the manufacturers. If there was a problem with the older protocols, then they would have been banned. The fact that they haven't been clearly indicates that there was no problem with them that needed "fixing" by regulation.

Having said that, the new LBT firmware does appear to be very good so far, but it is early days yet......

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Re: Frsky - Europe needs the D8 protocol and D-Recievers

Post by FlyingPhil »

pchristy wrote:Bernd: If the transmitter was manufactured (note: *manufactured* - not sold or bought) before January 2015, then it is perfectly legal to use D8 and LR-mode even if you have installed the LBT firmware. If it was *manufactured* after January 2015, then you are only supposed to use EU compliant firmware for the RF modules. It is, of course, completely impossible to enforce this regulation! As a result, there is a new EU directive coming into force this June which states that any equipment *manufactured* after June 2016 must be designed so that it is not possible to load non-compliant firmware. As with the earlier regulation, there is a 12 month grace period to allow existing stocks to pass through the system.
The new EU-LBT rx software supports D8 mode
- but you have to load OpenTx without the EU restriction to access D8 Mode on the OpenTX setup menus

So, does this mean that the D8 Mode is also LBT
- and if not why is it available on the Tx Module firmware?
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Re: Frsky - Europe needs the D8 protocol and D-Recievers

Post by MikeB »

True for openTx, er9x and ersky9x don't have an EU restriction, D8 is always available as on option in the menus.

I wasn't sure that manufacturers had to make it 'impossible' to load non-compliant firmware, just make it not easy.

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Re: Frsky - Europe needs the D8 protocol and D-Recievers

Post by pchristy »

FlyingPhil wrote:So, does this mean that the D8 Mode is also LBT
- and if not why is it available on the Tx Module firmware?
No, it is not LBT, nor does any transmission *have* to be LBT to be EU compliant. BUT, if it is not LBT (or equivalent), then it is restricted to a 10% Media Utilisation Factor - ie: it can only transmit for 10% of the available time - if it is to be used on post January 2015 equipment.

It is perfectly legal to use D8 on equipment *manufactured* before January 2015. It is NOT legal to use it on equipment *manufactured* after January 2015. However, this is impossible to enforce in practice, hence the new Directive.

Ultimately, FrSky (and everyone else who allows updates of the RF firmware) will have to implement a system which disables D8 on equipment manufactured after June 2016 (the date the Directive comes in to force). Whether they do this by making the firmware detect the manufacturing date somehow, or whether they simply remove that protocol from the available firmware (thereby disadvantaging users of older equipment, for whom it remains legal) remains to be seen......

Usual disclaimer: I am not a lawyer! The above is based on my reading and understanding of the regulations - something that even those who wrote them appear unclear!!!

And yes, it is a horrible and totally unnecessary mess, but it is not the fault of FrSky or any other R/C manufacturer.

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Re: Frsky - Europe needs the D8 protocol and D-Recievers

Post by graham »

For what its worth maybe Fr Sky could introduce some new X series recievers to replace the much lamented D series. The line up of X series is very limited at present hence the continued interest in D series.
I for one use V8s, Ds and X series and have to say the X series telemetry is great but why lose the A1 A2 features?
Maybe after the Horus is out Fr Sky will look again at the Rx issue. Hint, cheap copies of Fr Sky rxs are appearing so there must be a market for rxs.

Graham

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