Help troubleshooting "loss of signal" (and crash)

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Ronaldopn
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Help troubleshooting "loss of signal" (and crash)

Post by Ronaldopn »

Hi folks, I already posted this at the bros forum (see details)
http://www.theprofilebrotherhood.com/fo ... 17&t=36646
but I believe this need to be shared here too.
I crashed my Yak 54 after what looks like a "signal loss". After this crash I remembered one or 2 events of very quick loss of signal (maybe 1 or 2s) which I had ignored until now.
Most of the bros believe I had a brown out due to a low amp BEC (3A) overloaded. I already bought a 20A BEC to fix this but I'm not 100% sure it was the cause. Another bro is having the same issue (quick loss of signal and crash) and suspects a temporary "freezing"of the radio. I don't know if this is possible but I'm clueless here.
My Radio setup:
Taranis XD9 with internal module (Open TX 2.0.8) + D8R-XP receiver (Around 70 flights on this setup)

Tested all the electronics after the crash and everything works perfectly. I shook the wires looking for any bad contacts (i.e. broken solder joints) but the system looks solid. Although enabled, I never heard any RSSI warnings in flight (ever). "A1 low" and "A1 critical" warnings were not enabled so I cannot confirm if Rx voltage dropped to explain a brown out.

I'm really not comfortable flying again without being 100% sure I corrected the issue. Any ideas will be highly appreciated.
Last edited by Ronaldopn on Sun Oct 12, 2014 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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jhsa
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Re: Help troubleshooting "loss of signal" (and crash)

Post by jhsa »

I believe you didn't log the flight then :( If you did,and monitored the RX voltage, it would be there in the log and you could check it.. Also RSSI would be logged, so you could diagnose a signal loss.

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Ronaldopn
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Re: Help troubleshooting "loss of signal" (and crash)

Post by Ronaldopn »

The Taranis is fairly new to me, I did not know I could log the flights through telemetry., awesome! I'm reading about it right now, thanks!
Daedalus66
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Re: Help troubleshooting "loss of signal" (and crash)

Post by Daedalus66 »

Did you do a careful reduced power range test before flying? A likely cause could be a poor installation that allows the receiver antennas to be blocked in certain orientations. The occasional signal losses you mention would be consistent with this. On the other side, if you get good results in a ground range test, especially if you check the response in various attitudes, you can be assured that your installation is OK.
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jhsa
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Re: Help troubleshooting "loss of signal" (and crash)

Post by jhsa »

Does your model have some carbon fiber?

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Ronaldopn
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Re: Help troubleshooting

Post by Ronaldopn »

Daedalus66 wrote:Did you do a careful reduced power range test before flying?
Honestly, no and I know I should have done. I did that with my old 9X but since I was alone for the first flight with the Taranis I did not. Well, I tested the RSSI alarms this weekend by setting higher values and walking away from the receiver. I know the alarms work and I know I have never heard them in flight.
Daedalus66 wrote:A likely cause could be a poor installation that allows the receiver antennas to be blocked in certain orientations. The occasional signal losses you mention would be consistent with this
Both antennas were positioned at close to 90º but one big mistake I made was to place the receiver too close to the BEC and ferrite ring which is against BEC manual recommendations. At first, I believed this could have caused an interference but nobody seemed to agree with that.
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Re: Help troubleshooting "loss of signal" (and crash)

Post by Ronaldopn »

jhsa wrote:Does your model have some carbon fiber?
Just the wing tube like most of the aerobatic planes today but the receiver was quite far from it.
colt379
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Re: Help troubleshooting "loss of signal" (and crash)

Post by colt379 »

I have been reading a lot about this issue on the internet because I have encountered this RSSI issue myself. After several successful uneventful flights the signal slowly started degrading with the obvious warnings until seconds after launching I get the persistant warning. My last flight was a somewhat controlled crash.
The only thing I have changed on this radio is the upgraded charging board for the 2000mAH battery. After careful thought, it is the first time I got a RSSI warning.
Ofcourse I never paid much attention until there was a problem, but now that I am, my RSSI signal is never 100 and quickly drops to around 50 within a few steps from the aircraft.
I fly in wide open areas with no obstructions. No people and no houses for miles.
I own 6 X8R receivers and 1 L9R still new in package along with 4 of the X8R's. I get the same exact results with the 2 receivers I have installed. I am almost positive it is the transmitter.
No I haven't flashed anything. It is the original r2940 from the factory. I dont believe I should change firmware until the problem is actually realized. I will however change the charging board back to the factory to see if that is the cause, but doubtful. There still would be an underlying issue, right?
Personally I think there has been too much HYPE about this product. The hardware (bells and whistles) are great. Its a great concept, but I think it is too much too fast because when it comes down to just the basics, it fails. It's called radio controlled and if you cant keep a signal. Fail. Even if this was a basic 4 channel radio. Fail.
I'm computer savy and I don't mind the programming, but I'm not into playing computer geek anymore, I just want to fly my planes. I really don't even mind this problem, but nobody seems to have any answers to any of the problems I have come across.
I think the open source is great for those who are into that.
My opinion is they should have a basic working system without bugs to legitamize selling this retail. Add the bling later as you go. Radio signals are not new technology, but even this post has people stating the obvious, what I consider obnoxious questions like, did you do a range test?
Carbon fiber has been around for awhile too. LOL.
I never flew with telemetry before this radio. I never crashed a plane due to signal loss before this radio.
The advertised 1.5km is just shy of 1 mile. I don't think I could see a plane 1 mile away, so if I'm having signal problems 100 yards away, there is a problem. My flying is over unless this problem is solved or I invest in a different radio system.
I would expect the answer to come from one of you guru's out there or from someone on the developement team.
Maybe a system where people can send there problem hardware in so the team can figure it out and also get it replaced by new.
You can't fix something if you don't realize what the problem is.
I'm not bashing, I'm trying to problem solve. So keep up the good work and I wish all success.
Advice: If your radio works, don't do anything to it. Kind of defeats the purpose of buying it in the first place, but for someone just wanting to fly on the weekend, don't do it. And...don't risk your expensive plane on this one just yet.
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Kilrah
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Re: Help troubleshooting "loss of signal" (and crash)

Post by Kilrah »

colt379 wrote: Personally I think there has been too much HYPE about this product. The hardware (bells and whistles) are great. Its a great concept, but I think it is too much too fast because when it comes down to just the basics, it fails. It's called radio controlled and if you cant keep a signal. Fail.
There are tens of thousands of people flying with no problem, you just likely had the bad luck of getting a defective unit. Get it replaced under warranty, done. Can happen to anybody regardless of brand, that's what warranties are for.

The great advantage of that system is that thanks to the telemetry you can actually detect it BEFORE you crash something. If you pay attention to it that is, of course.
Ronaldopn
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Re: Help troubleshooting "loss of signal" (and crash)

Post by Ronaldopn »

Folks, after a lot of discussion about this issue I believe I found the root cause of the crash and possible in flight hesitations I had. My elevator servo was freezing (jamming) in certain positions. You can see the details and a video here:
http://www.theprofilebrotherhood.com/fo ... 17&t=36712
I built another plane and I have been flying for a week without any issues. I think there was nothing wrong with the radio or receiver.
Last edited by Ronaldopn on Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Help troubleshooting "loss of signal" (and crash)

Post by jtaylor »

colt379 wrote:I have been reading a lot about this issue on the internet.

Sniped much of rant................................

My opinion is they should have a basic working system without bugs to legitamize selling this retail. Add the bling later as you go. Radio signals are not new technology, but even this post has people stating the obvious, what I consider obnoxious questions like, did you do a range test?
Carbon fiber has been around for awhile too. LOL.
I never flew with telemetry before this radio. I never crashed a plane due to signal loss before this radio.
The advertised 1.5km is just shy of 1 mile. I don't think I could see a plane 1 mile away, so if I'm having signal problems 100 yards away, there is a problem. My flying is over unless this problem is solved or I invest in a different radio system.
I would expect the answer to come from one of you guru's out there or from someone on the developement team.
Maybe a system where people can send there problem hardware in so the team can figure it out and also get it replaced by new.
You can't fix something if you don't realize what the problem is.
I'm not bashing, I'm trying to problem solve. So keep up the good work and I wish all success.
Advice: If your radio works, don't do anything to it. Kind of defeats the purpose of buying it in the first place, but for someone just wanting to fly on the weekend, don't do it. And...don't risk your expensive plane on this one just yet.
The radio (RF) code is supplied by frSky, not open source, and has nothing to do with openTX so you're ranting in the wrong place. There are thousands of these systems in use without any range problems. Every manufacture has radio failures and broken antennas that cause range problems. That's why they tell you to range test before every flight (does anybody actually do that?) At least with RSSI telemetry you know you have a problem.

It sounds to me like your transmitter or antenna is broken. Send it back and get it fixed, if it's less than a year old it's under warranty.

Jim
colt379
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Re: Help troubleshooting "loss of signal" (and crash)

Post by colt379 »

Updating my rant according to one post I've read...
I just finished switching back the board which updated the charging for the 2000mAh battery for my Taranis radio. Lost my binding I thought....tried another receiver...same thing. Switched back to the updated board AGAIN and guess what. Signal again...and still poor RSSI. I'm not bad mouthing this radio just because I have nothing to do. I'd like to fly ONE of the eight planes I have that ALL have the X8R receivers in them. Honestly I should have read more about the problems with this radio before I bought, but it is the price that reels ya in. I consider it wasted money. Maybe I will put all in one of my junk boxes till they figure things out.
So, it's not the antenna.
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Re: Help troubleshooting "loss of signal" (and crash)

Post by MikeB »

I can understand your frustration, but as Kilrah said there are many thousands of users quite happy. Unfortunately, as with all electrtonic devices, there is a very small percentage that suffer what is call "infant mortality" where very early in their life they fail. It seems you are suffering from one of these.
From where did you buy your Taranis? You should be able to get it replaced under warranty. It seems to me the internal XJT module is failing.
The FrSky radio link is usually very good, and it seems that it worked OK when you first got the system.
I suggest:
1. Contact the seller and get a warranty replacement.
or:
2. Purchase a new backboard with internal XJT module (from Aloft Hobbies for $40). This will probably require you to solder the antenna wire to it.
or:
3. Purchase a XJT Tx module (from Aloft Hobbies for $36) and plug it in the external bay.

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Kilrah
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Re: Help troubleshooting "loss of signal" (and crash)

Post by Kilrah »

colt379 wrote:I consider it wasted money.
My rant will about people who cry about something not working when they've got a warranty and dealers who are ready to do all they can to solve a problem, but don't use it ;)
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Re: Help troubleshooting "loss of signal" (and crash)

Post by colt379 »

How about useful replies about the problem. Pretend YOU don't have a warranty and need to fix your radio. I think I make some people uneasy about flying their plane because your radio could fail at any moment. I'm thrilled that your radio works, but my consumer confidence is shaken. Even if I had another brand new radio with a $500 plane in the air, I will be wondering when the next fail happens. As I've stated before, this is NOT new technology. I had hoped to have replies from people that could trouble shoot the issue. It's what most people do BEFORE they attempt to fix anything that's broken. When I hear warranty,warranty, I think poor quality and you don't know why your product fails. I appreciate advice about the warranty, but that's not why I posted here. The answer I'm looking for is why a part is failing. Imagine: Your video card in your computer fails. Do you replace with the same under warranty or do you upgrade? Geez...
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Re: Help troubleshooting "loss of signal" (and crash)

Post by colt379 »

P.S.
I'm not crying. I have a ford raptor and a yamaha Vmax. I can afford a new radio for my toys. I'm trying to be a useful consumer of a product that has failed and maybe through productive conversation the problem can be fixed.
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Kilrah
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Re: Help troubleshooting "loss of signal" (and crash)

Post by Kilrah »

colt379 wrote:I had hoped to have replies from people that could trouble shoot the issue. It's what most people do BEFORE they attempt to fix anything that's broken. The answer I'm looking for is why a part is failing.
Then you got all the answers you can have in Mike's post.

I had a brand new $800 Graupner radio fail on me on the 2nd flight. Sucks of course, but it's nothing more than bad luck, it's quite obvious it's an isolated problem as if it was a general problem we'd know about it due to massive uproars. Got it replaced under warranty, tested it well before using it on another expensive model, and no more issues.
Nothing different about your case.

None of the existing RC equipment on the market whatever the price is burn-in tested nor always bug-free (remember the early Futaba FASST issues that caused numerous crashes and required factory recalls on all models including $2500 ones). We have to take our own responsibilities in testing, and live with the issues as they will happen.
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Re: Help troubleshooting "loss of signal" (and crash)

Post by colt379 »

I'm 50 Kilrah. I guess I am old school. For the sake of conversation though...The only futaba I ever owned was the 4 channel when I first started this hobby. My favorite radio was a Jr X347 I used when I got into heli's. I suppose I have been lucky up until now with absolutely no equipment failure. I have been known to bit a bit anal about equipment working as it should. $1000 Xcell heli's will do that to you I guess. I don't believe new is always better but is made to be a requirement these days. Like digital t.v. Rarely did the old t.v's fail, but today life expectancy of most is 5 years, plasma for example. I am all about responsibility and will surrender this cause and admit I made a mistake by going all in with this new product. Yes, I attributed the negative stories to "bad luck" but I think it is more than that. I laugh at myself because I don't need 16 channels but it was the bait used to set the hook. Buttons, buttons, buttons. Lol! Life is grand and it's a beautiful day. Blue skies and calm winds to all!
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Re: Help troubleshooting "loss of signal" (and crash)

Post by jhsa »

ha, I fly with a $50 dollar for nearly 4 years now, and it never let me down.. expensive models included.. :D

People are speaking about warranty because it is a normal thing to do everywhere..
I think that you could get a bit more help if you were a bit more polite to the people that are taking their time to answer your questions, and if there is a place you can get any help is here because some of the development people use this forum.
If you want to repair it yourself, MikeB already answered your question..

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Kilrah
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Re: Help troubleshooting "loss of signal" (and crash)

Post by Kilrah »

jhsa wrote:People are speaking about warranty because it is a normal thing to do everywhere..
Yup.
In recent times (<2 years) I've had to send in for warranty repair a TV, a game console, a mobile phone, an RC radio, a video transmission system, a gopro, a laptop... and I certainly forget others.

So nothing unusual.

"Back in the days" your TV would last for 20 years, but it would also cost several times more with regard to cost of living. Sadly since someone found out price is the main attention point for the vast majority of consumers and started doing low cost stuff, everybody was forced to follow the price drops, nobody can "afford" making quality stuff anymore and we have to put up with that as a result.
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MikeB
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Re: Help troubleshooting "loss of signal" (and crash)

Post by MikeB »

Who is the seller from whom you purchased the unit?
If it was Aloft, then they will be very helpful to sort your problem.
The only real thing you can probably do towards trying to fix this yourself is to look at the antenna connection to the internal XJT module and make sure it is good. Also check the antenna coax itself to make sure it hasn't beed pinched anywhere.
When operating the radio, what do you have as the SWR reading?

I'm trying to help, but I do need these answers to do so.

Mike.
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Re: Help troubleshooting "loss of signal" (and crash)

Post by johnmoto »

colt379 wrote: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:18 pm Updating my rant according to one post I've read...
I just finished switching back the board which updated the charging for the 2000mAh battery for my Taranis radio. Lost my binding I thought....tried another receiver...same thing. Switched back to the updated board AGAIN and guess what. Signal again...and still poor RSSI. I'm not bad mouthing this radio just because I have nothing to do. I'd like to fly ONE of the eight planes I have that ALL have the X8R receivers in them. Honestly I should have read more about the problems with this radio before I bought, but it is the price that reels ya in. I consider it wasted money. Maybe I will put all in one of my junk boxes till they figure things out.
So, it's not the antenna.
do you have to do anything else after changing the bacboard
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Re: Help troubleshooting "loss of signal" (and crash)

Post by Daedalus66 »

This thread was last active in 2014. I assume the problem has gone away. I hope he found satisfaction (though I doubt it). [emoji3]
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Re: Help troubleshooting "loss of signal" (and crash)

Post by GoGoMan12 »

I just experienced this problem.
Crashed my giant Lanier Stinger.
Luckily damage wasnt too bad.

I had signal loss once before while plane was on the ground at idle ready for takeoff.
I was standing over it and blipped the throttle and nothing happened.
Opened the throttle up and nothing.
Walked to the side of the airplane and nothing. No servos moving of any kind.
Then, without warning it all came back.
I went ahead and flew, like an idiot, but, wth.
That was 3 weeks ago.
Yesterday I was on approach about 8 ft high and 20 ft from runway and tried to give some throttle and
get it on the step. Nothing happened. Gave full up, nothing.
Airplane went in holding the same servo attitudes.
Got it home and cannot get it to fail.
Checking RSSI and ground check is all good.
RSSI down to 30db from 1/8 mile away still operates the elevator.

So, I am convinced if you have an RF link, you are good.
If you lose it, by the time you get the RSSI alarm, you have crashed.
My equipment is fairly old and I am running firmware 1.1.02 with X8R.
This is the 3rd year using the radio and X8r, but I didn't fly much.
This is the first time this problem has shown up.
Is there any evidence that replacing boards as mentioned earlier has corrected this problem?

thnx
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Re: Help troubleshooting "loss of signal" (and crash)

Post by jhsa »

That is not good, specially with a giant scale model. :o

I would test the radio gear on a really small model if I were you, and try finding where the problem is..

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Re: Help troubleshooting "loss of signal" (and crash)

Post by GoGoMan12 »

That was suggested to me by a fellow flier.
If I don't find a problem without flying, I Wii put the receiver in my electric Supersporster ep.
This sux.
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Re: Help troubleshooting "loss of signal" (and crash)

Post by mrunx »

GoGoMan12,
Sorry to hear that, and glad there wasn't too much damage.

Is the plane powered by a gas engine?
If so, it might be RF interference from the ignition, which in severe cases can cause the Rx to go to failsafe.

Care to share some info/pics of your setup?

Pablo
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Re: Help troubleshooting "loss of signal" (and crash)

Post by Daedalus66 »

This doesn't sound like signal loss at all. It seems much more likely to be intermittent power loss in the model or even a transmitter intermittent failure.

These of course are failures of the RF link but not what we think of as signal loss usually. My point is not to jump to conclusions but analyze all available information and keep an open mind.

I would start by examining both Tx and airborne systems for any sign of loose connections. That includes batteries and switches.
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Re: Help troubleshooting

Post by jhsa »

Daedalus66 wrote: Wed Jun 14, 2017 1:35 pm This doesn't sound like signal loss at all. It seems much more likely to be intermittent power loss in the model or even a transmitter intermittent failure.
I totally agree with this.. Very good advice.. :)

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Re: Help troubleshooting "loss of signal" (and crash) Fresnel Zone Affect RF Signal

Post by bob195558 »

You may want to consider the Fresnel Zone also.
See here for video info: (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCVd3QGQhKU&t=33s).

Bob B.
Last edited by bob195558 on Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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