9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

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jhsa
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9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa »

Mike, a problem on my 9XR-PRO that started some days ago (radio shows POWER OFF when I turn it ON), made me look better into the detection circuit, used for the soft power on boards like the skyboard, 9XR-PRO, etc. I had a look at the 9x switch board and I verified that it seems that one side of the switch actually powers the
radio, while the other side detects if the switch is ON or not, correct?

So, in my understanding, if one of the sides of the switch has a bad connection, the radio will power OFF, even if the switch is still ON, right?

Is there any problem in connecting both sides of the switch together as both are switching battery voltage anyway? That would reduce failure probability in 50% I guess

Thanks

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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by MikeB »

One side turns power on the the radio, the other turns power on to the RF module. The second is also used to detect the power switch is ON. The RF power is separate so the trainer jack can turn the radio power on without turning the RF module on.

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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa »

So, if we somehow on skyboard based radios had a way of switch the RF Module's power, that circuit could be bypassed?
I'm asking because, as I reported on the first post, I'm having problems with my PRO radio, and I believe I saw the radio turning OFF with the switch ON once, and many times, the radio displays "SHUTTING DOWN/POWER OFF" on the screen when I turn it ON. Not always.
Could it also be that the firmware is doing this detecting job too soon? maybe that side of the switch is still not fully ON when the radio is powered. I did try turning the radio ON, and then start moving the switch slowly towards the OFF position. I can make the radio say "POWER OFF", even if the switch IS STILL keeping it ON. Moving the switch back up to the fully ON position DO NOT restart the radio. It will stay stuck on POWER OFF.. And this is a problem that needs to be addressed in my opinion.. Please see the video. Sorry about my English..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yo6lTVevY48

I remember asking some time ago if there was any chance the radio would turn OFF because of the soft power circuitry. I was told that it wouldn't be possible because this circuit was paralleled to the power switch.
Well, I see now that it is not really completely paralleled as this circuit is not 100% connected to the same circuit that powers the radio, and that does worry me..

Thanks

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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by MikeB »

I sent you some information, in a PM, on some voltages to check. Did you get this? (Sent Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:55 am ).

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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa »

I will do it in a while.. Didn't have a chance to go to the back yet.. But is the radio staying in POWER OFF when I make the switch fail something to to with it?? Or is it that the firmware just doesn't restart after the detection voltage was OFF, unless the radio was completely restarted??

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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by MikeB »

At one time it did restart if you switched power back on before the soft power went off. Over time, this was removed as we had a problem with the original (Flysky) module preventing detection of the power off, so we had to stop the output pulses. We also have to stop logging. It became easier to just commit to the power off, rather than trying to put these back on and resume normal operation.
Normally, you only have half a second to put the power back on before it goes off anyway.

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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa »

But like this if there is just a bad connection for a fration of a second the radio will stay OFF, it won't recover and restart. I think that is also what I saw happening before.. maybe that is problem of my radio. Will now take those measurements.

Question, For example if the switch side that powers the radio is faster connecting the circuit than the side the detects the radio ON by a fraction of a second, could that cause the problem I'm seeing at power up?

Thanks

João

P.S. - I think I have a circuit I used on one of my projects that could avoid the radio turning OFF in case the switch fails. This could very well be integrated (as well as a protection diode) on a custom switch board. I will post that circuit later..
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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa »

Here is the circuit.. With this, the switch can fail all it wants, the radio won't turn OFF. Maybe one of these on the power side of the switch, and another on the detection side. maybe it could be adapted to use 2 mosfets but only one transistor, Will study that possibility..

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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa »

Mike, could this work? With this circuit (if it works), the radio won't power down even if the switch fails..
This uses only one side of the switch.. The other side is still used for the battery charge circuit. Please note the schottky diode is not only for protection but it is necessary. Otherwise the RF power would be always ON.

Ahhh, and I have just found out that even with the diode mod we currently do to the switch board, we are NOT 100% protected against Battery reversal. If you reverse the battery and insert a trainer plug in the trainer Jack, you WILL still destroy your mainboard..

I will also insert another diode on the trainer circuit..

Thanks

João

EDIT: Updated Schematics with protection also on the trainer circuit..
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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa »

Ok, I have a little update. It's moving slowly, but forward.
I have something kinda working. Still need lots of testing. With this circuit I attempt to prevent the radio from turning OFF if there is a bad connection on the power switch, or if it fails completely. It should also protect the radio against reversed batttery polarity when turning the power switch ON. It DOES NOT protect the mainboard if powering the radio by inserting a jack plug in the trainer port. This needs a separate protection because this part of the circuit doesn't come to the switch board. It goes directly to the mainboard.
About the charge circuit. As you can see in the schematics we are switching the ground instead of the positive as in the stock switch board. To maintain the stock charge circuit on the main power switch alongside the new power ON circuit, There would be negative and positive (Battery voltage) very close together on the middle pins of the main switch.. Well I don't like that :) So I'm switching the charge circuit using also a Mosfet transistor, and the circuit is protected against charger reverse polarity by a couple diodes. This needs also some very good testing. So, here is also a video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VACPx3wq66s

I'm quite happy with the results so far. Constructive comments are appreciated ;) :)

Thank you

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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa »

Ok,this circuit keeps the radio ON if the power switch fail. Now a challenge ;) would it be possible to detect that the power switch failed and the circuit is keeping the radio ON? This might need a microcontroller, or a pin from the radio, right? If there was a, available pin, would that be doable? The collector of the transistor connects to ground when the radio is ON, if the microcontroller/radio pin connect to it, it could sense when the connection to ground was broken, correct?

This would be great because not only the radio will stay ON, but it could also trigger an alarm so we would land the model immediately.

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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa »

have a test board installed in one of my radios.. so far so good.. :) Needs a lot of testing. ;)
Pictures tomorrow..
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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by OctavioS »

Interesting idea, i've been watching the video and really hope this goes for production. Very much needed.
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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa »

Here are a few possibilities. Now i need to make some PCBs and test all this ;) as I said before I already have it working on one of my radios.. It's the version that uses a separate diode for protecting the trainer power circuit.
Constructive comments very welcome ;)

João
This one uses only one diode for protecting the complete radio..
This one uses only one diode for protecting the complete radio..
This one uses two separate diodes to protect the mainboard and the trainer power circuit..
This one uses two separate diodes to protect the mainboard and the trainer power circuit..
This one uses a Mosfet transistor to protect the complete radio.. The adavantage of this is that it eliminates the little voltage drop caused by the diodes..
This one uses a Mosfet transistor to protect the complete radio.. The adavantage of this is that it eliminates the little voltage drop caused by the diodes..
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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa »

Here is a video of my latest circuit working.. It's a 9x mainboard, but will also test with an Ar9x board, before I build it and install it in all my radios..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzIZSg5U_6w

The second video is the battery polarity reversal test... :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFM2aSYPYYQ

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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by MaartenH »

Hello João,

I'm wondering how this project is going. Have you been able to test this project lately?
I sure would like to help with the testing if that is what still needs to be done.

This redesign of the switch board is a important mod I thinks!

Best regards,
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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa »

Hi, yes, I have it installed on 2 of my radios. still have to build a version for my 9XR-PRO radio that already had a power switch failure. I have repaired it but don't know how long it will last. I think this circuit is a must have on that radio. I also want to build a version for my 9x radio with stock board..

Which radio do you have?

I kinda forgot a little about this as my main radios are now protected and no one else had interest in it.
If you want to build one we can revive this project :)

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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by MaartenH »

jhsa wrote: Wed May 17, 2017 2:27 pm Which radio do you have?
I have a Turnigy 9X with a 9Xtreme smartieparts board and (since a few days) with the M9 gimbals in it.
jhsa wrote: Wed May 17, 2017 2:27 pm If you want to build one we can revive this project :)
I really want to build one because I want to have more safety build in the radio.. :)

Do you have the circuit with the Mosfet transistor in your radio's? I think this is the best out of the three.
Is the drawing of the circuit onchanged? Is it like this in your radio?
And if you have a list of parts it would be super!!

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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

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Let me check. It's been a while.. I actually use 2 mosfets, I think a third could be used for reverse polarity protection instead of the diode that we have to install together with the 9xtreme. The 9xtreme has a little design problem and has no reverse polarity protection.
I still didn't build one of these for the 9xtreme.. I don't know if the same that I built for my Ar9x radio can also be directly used with the 9xtreme.

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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by andrewju »

I use such a switch with the AR9x board for quite some time already, and it works great!

Image

I didn't try it with a 9Xtreme though.

Let me check if I still have my Eagle files for this project (it may take me a couple of days)...
I should certainly have some unpopulated PCBs of it, for sure!
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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by OctavioS »

andrewju wrote: Wed May 17, 2017 10:07 pm I use such a switch with the AR9x board for quite some time already, and it works great!

Image

I didn't try it with a 9Xtreme though.

Let me check if I still have my Eagle files for this project (it may take me a couple of days)...
I should certainly have some unpopulated PCBs of it, for sure!
Im using the one you offered me with 9Xtreme and no problem so far. :)
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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa »

andrewju wrote: Wed May 17, 2017 10:07 pm I use such a switch with the AR9x board for quite some time already, and it works great!

I didn't try it with a 9Xtreme though.

Let me check if I still have my Eagle files for this project (it may take me a couple of days)...
I should certainly have some unpopulated PCBs of it, for sure!
I am just making a little change to the design :) Was actually going to mail it to you. It will avoid having both positive and negative at the switch. I don't really like that :( This design has only positive, so no changes to the charging circuit unlike my previous design :) Needs testing of course..
I don't know why I didn't think about this before :( it will increase the number of components though :)
Will try to post it here soon. Will have to test it tomorrow.

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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by andrewju »

Looking forward to see the updated version!

In fact, I also had an idea how to improve that. But since your original design works perfectly fine for me, this was a really low-priority item in my to-do list... :)
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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by MaartenH »

jhsa wrote: Wed May 17, 2017 8:00 pm Let me check. It's been a while..

João
Of course! Take your time... :D Thanks for looking into it agian! You also andrewju!!
andrewju wrote: Wed May 17, 2017 10:07 pm Let me check if I still have my Eagle files for this project (it may take me a couple of days)...
I should certainly have some unpopulated PCBs of it, for sure!
That is a really nice design andrewju! A board that replaces the original one at the same location as the original (and the same form factor).
andrewju wrote: Thu May 18, 2017 5:57 am Looking forward to see the updated version!
I also look forward for the updated version João! If there is something I can do to help, just let me know! I have basic knowledge of electronics and still learning.. ;)
There is no hurry, if there is something more urgent please finish that first. And when you and/or andrewju have time to look into this that would be super!

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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa »

Ok, a little update. My previous design that I have installed in 2 of my radios has the ground at the switch. The problem is like that we cannot maintain the same original battery charging circuit.

Andrewju if I'm not mistaken, adapted the circuit so you can still use the original charging circuit, but that involves having both positive and negative switched by the power switch. That was also the circuit I have used on my first attempt to do this, but I gotta say, I'm not very comfortable with that.

So last night I gave it some thought and I think I found a solution. :)
Give me about a couple hours and I might come up with something to test on the breadboard. Will do it as well of course..
This will have the positive only switched by the power switch.

João

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Re: RE: Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa »


andrewju wrote:Looking forward to see the updated version!

In fact, I also had an idea how to improve that. But since your original design works perfectly fine for me, this was a really low-priority item in my to-do list... :)
If you want something fancy, we can always go the microcontroller way with a press to turn ON / press again to turn OFF, kind of stuff :)
Just have to stick an ATtiny microcontroller in there :mrgreen:
In fact that would solve a couple of my problems with the charger circuit.. ;)
:)

But I don't know if a radio soft power switch is a good idea :)

João



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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa »

Hmmm, the way I was looking into has a little problem :( There is a transistor that is always ON when the radio is OFF and consequently a current draw of 240uA. Not good :(

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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by MaartenH »

The board that you and andrewju have designed (in more then one version), is it connected via the original 6 pin connector from the orignal switch board?
Let me put it like this: Is this new board a drop-in replacement for the original switch board?


jhsa wrote: Thu May 18, 2017 7:49 am Ok, a little update. My previous design that I have installed in 2 of my radios has the ground at the switch. The problem is like that we cannot maintain the same original battery charging circuit.
I don't know how the charging circuit works. Do you have info about how it works in the original radio? Or is there a thread with this info?
I like to understand how it all works.


jhsa wrote: Thu May 18, 2017 7:54 am
andrewju wrote:Looking forward to see the updated version!

In fact, I also had an idea how to improve that. But since your original design works perfectly fine for me, this was a really low-priority item in my to-do list... :)
If you want something fancy, we can always go the microcontroller way with a press to turn ON / press again to turn OFF, kind of stuff :)
Just have to stick an ATtiny microcontroller in there :mrgreen:
In fact that would solve a couple of my problems with the charger circuit.. ;)
:)

But I don't know if a radio soft power switch is a good idea :)

João

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I like fancy... 8-)

But it has to be doable as well... :lol:

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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa »

Yes, it connects to the 6 pin connector..

The positive voltage coming from the charger is switched by the power switch. that means, when the switch turns the radio OFF, it also turns the charging circuit ON, so both circuits aren't allowed to be ON at the same time.

I think I have an idea of what to do, I think i will go back to one of my original ideas for the charging circuit, and it will use the original positive switching but controlled by a negative signal on the power switch.. Like this it will use the original wiring, hopefully..
Let me test this :)

João
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MaartenH
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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by MaartenH »

Super that it connects to the 6 pin connector!

Right, I understand the ON/OFF switching of the radio and charging circuit.
jhsa wrote: Thu May 18, 2017 12:07 pm I think I have an idea of what to do, I think i will go back to one of my original ideas for the charging circuit, and it will use the original positive switching but controlled by a negative signal on the power switch.. Like this it will use the original wiring, hopefully..
Let me test this :)
Ok! Thanks for looking into it already! I hope you can solve it... ;)

Maarten
Turnigy 9X - 9Xtreme board - M9 Gimbals - 4in1 Module

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