9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

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jhsa
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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa » Thu May 18, 2017 1:18 pm

Ok, Here is something.. Please don't look at the values yet. It's just a sketch and will need to breadboard this.
The green square represents the radio circuitry. I think I even represented the 9xtreme power design problem, and I forgot to add a reverse polarity protection. Will do that later.
as i said this is just an idea.
The circuit inside the red rectangle represents the charging circuit, with reverse polarity protection and another Mosfet to allow to switch the positive side but controlled by the ground signal at the power switch..

The LED's represent the motherboard power and the RF module power..

Will breadboard this a bit later as my wife is getting in my nerves now.. She needs my computer.. GGGRRRRR v :twisted: :mrgreen:

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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by MaartenH » Fri May 19, 2017 6:37 am

Are the circuits in the red and green rectangles as the original circuits in the radio (exept for the green LED with resistor in the green rectangle)?
jhsa wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 1:18 pm
Will breadboard this a bit later as my wife is getting in my nerves now.. She needs my computer.. GGGRRRRR v :twisted: :mrgreen:
You have to keep your wife happy too.... :D
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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa » Fri May 19, 2017 8:14 am

The circuit in green is the approximate 9xtreme circuit. I do not have the schematic, so that is what I think the circuit is..
Anyway, discard that picture. I will be posting another one shortly with much less components.
With this new circuit, apart from building the board (I will try to design it single sided), I would recommend replacing the original charging circuit's diode on the radio's back board with a schottky diode.

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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa » Fri May 19, 2017 10:27 am

Ok, here it is. This is what I have in my radios except for the Charge switching transistor and the diode.
The Ar9x board already has a well placed protection diode and it also doesn't use the charge port. It uses the charge circuitry to connect the telemetry signal between the BackBoard and the MainBoard. The 9xtreme does use the charge circuit for charging.
I still didn't test this.
I couldn't decide whether to use a single diode protecting both MB_PWR and RF_PWR, or one diode for each. I opted for just one diode to keep the part count low. The diode shown on the schematic can take a max current of 3A, which should be enough. The "SS34" can also be used..
The mosfets have a max current rating of about 4A..

Needs testing.. will try to breadboard this later.. :)
Now to design a PCB. Hopefully single sided ;)

João
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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by MaartenH » Fri May 19, 2017 12:23 pm

Wow João! The speed you come up with designs is amazing... :o

The number of parts is indeed kept as low possible. Nice!

You will test this on the breadboard, but do you also test circuits with a computer program?

Single sided PCB would be nice... ;)
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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa » Fri May 19, 2017 1:12 pm

I use "Yenka" to test the circuits.. it is free as long as used at home and not for work.. It only works before or after work hours and weekends..
Or you can buy a license of course :)

If someone knows another good (free) program please let me know.. The problem with these programs is that they have some flaws and can't be 100% trusted, but do give a good idea of how the circuit will work..
For example the circuit works on Yenka without R4, but it doesn't on the breadboard..

Working on a PCB at the moment.. Comments and suggestions are very welcome and appreciated.. :)

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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa » Fri May 19, 2017 6:07 pm

This is untested, and I still didn't breadboard it :) but.....
Something like this??

I know, it is not professional at all, still learning :) ;)

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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa » Fri May 19, 2017 9:33 pm

Found a mistake. R1 should connect to the Kathode to the diode, not the Anode :(

Will update the schematic and the other pics in a while..
Sorry about that..

João

EDIT: Mistake corrected and files updated..

Once all is tested I will post the eagle files
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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa » Sat May 20, 2017 2:21 pm

Ok, here is a little video I did last night.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl8F55O0RMw

After I did the video, I have realized that there was some current drained from the battery (160uA) when the circuit was turned OFF. This was due to the Mosfet resistors in the charging circuit draining to ground. I increased the resistor values and could decrease that current to 25uA. This might be close to the batteries self discharge current :)
But I was still not happy with it, so I placed another schottky diode after the Mosfet that controls the charging circuit. Obviously the diode on the backboard will have to be bypassed. But that is easy to do ;) :)

I need to make a PCB now and test with a real original 9x board, to make sure there is really no magic smoke, and all works as it should.. :)
Here are a couple pics, as well as a PDF file you can use to make a PCB yourself, and the eagle files if you want to modify the layout. But this still needs testing before it goes into the 9xtreme radio..

João
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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa » Sun May 21, 2017 1:02 pm

Hold on a bit.. I just found out that we might get away with only one Mosfet with the 9xtreme board..
The Ar9x board would be more complicated as it already has one protection diode, in the right place if you use the normal switch, but in the wrong place if using this circuit.. :)

Working on it..

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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa » Sun May 21, 2017 1:47 pm

Ok, I think this might work.. Will build one later or tomorrow :) but first will breadboard it.
Actually my 9xtreme has no safe switch protection. :) Yet :D

João
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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by MaartenH » Mon May 22, 2017 6:31 am

You have don a lot of work again João! It keeps better and better..:-)

I will have a look for a program, the one I used in the past, to see if it is still free to use.

I have a question: is the 6 pin connector missing from the PCB? Or do you have a other way of connecting the board to the radio?
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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa » Mon May 22, 2017 8:21 am

You get a 2mm pitch (I think) 6 pin/wire extension with the right connector.
Then solder the wires to the new switch board. The connector connects to the motherboard.
Will build one or two boards today.
I breadboard tested it last night and it seems to work ok.

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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa » Tue May 23, 2017 12:25 am

Ok, built a board. Will connect it to an original 9x mainboard and test. of course will also test reverse polarity.. Cross your fingers :) it shouldn't be a problem though ;)

here are some pics

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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by MaartenH » Tue May 23, 2017 6:44 am

Incredible how fast you made this!! (you just never sleep, right?!) :shock:

Looks nice and I hope you will not frie the 9x board...! I have my fingers crossed... :D

I assume you have a 9X board to test it on? Otherwise I can also test it of cource.

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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa » Tue May 23, 2017 3:55 pm

Ok, a little video here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w4A3_7iKPE

Still didn't test charging because the charging jack is missing on this radio, but it should work.. will test a bit later..

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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by MaartenH » Wed May 24, 2017 12:34 pm

Nice demonstration João!

Can't wait untill you had the time to test this with the charging port b/c after that I would very much like to make the PCB you made and put it in my radio.. :D

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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa » Wed May 24, 2017 7:27 pm

Yes, but this one will need real testing as it has now only one Mosfet.. It's max ratings are around 4A, so i guess the board should be good up to 1A. These are the Mosfets the Ar9x board uses.

With all this, I ended up rebuilding this radio that was just a piece of scrap :) Will replace the original mainboard with an Ar9x, install my RF module soft power switches, extra switches, rotary encoder, bluetooth, backlight, haptic, etc.. :)
Installed some original 9x gimbals I had laying around and the buggers are centering really well.. I wonder if it is really needed to replace them with the taranis gimbals :)

I will post the eagle files in a while so you can build your board..

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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa » Thu May 25, 2017 8:59 am

I have tested the charging last night. It is ok until 500mA but the Mosfet starts getting a bit too warm for my taste with higher currents. Not that I will ever want to charge the radio faster than that, of course.. Will have to find our why as the datasheet says that the Mosfet can handle around 4A. I increased the current to about 800mA and the thing started to get hot. No way it would do 4A in these conditions.
Also, with all the stuff I always install inside my radios, I'm starting to think that a double Mosfet setup like I had before might be better, or use a more powerful Mosfet. Will have to look into that.

João

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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by MikeB » Thu May 25, 2017 11:44 am

When charging, check the gate-source voltage is at least 5 volts.

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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa » Thu May 25, 2017 1:30 pm

It is Mike.. it is over 6V When charging a 6 cell NiMh pack. Measured it last night. But it is not the charging current that worries me. I believe 500mA is more than enough for most NiMh batteries.
I'm just a bit concerned about the radio current draw itself. With the single Mosfet design, the transistor switches both Radio and RF Module power. This includes all the stuff I normally add to my radio. Voice/Music also draw quite a bit if loud.

Ok, this circuit is paralleled with the mainboard that also has it's own Mosfet. I think next generation mainboards should use a "stronger mosfet"

I have just updated my schematic and board with new mosfets. I will try the IRF 7416.
IRF7416_IR.pdf
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I really like these SO-8 Mosfets even if they are a bit bigger. I use them in nearly all my projects. I just thought I would give the AO3407A a shot and make things smaller, but I gotta say, I am not impressed :)


Thanks for your comments

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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa » Thu May 25, 2017 3:09 pm

Right, this is what I will try next :) Making a couple boards now..

João
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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa » Fri May 26, 2017 1:17 am

Ok, here are some pictures.
I'm surprised that this Mosfet also becomes quite hot if I charge at 1A.
At 800mA I can touch the transistor with my lips and keep them there for a while.. at 1A it will get to hot to do that.. But it is still better than with the other transistor.
I would like to understand why this is happening.though. Vgs is 6V when charging. Voltage drop across the diode is about 0.3V or 0.4V.

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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa » Fri May 26, 2017 1:21 am

Eagle files for this board in case someone wants to build and test.. :)

I will definitely use the SO-8 Mosfets from now on..

João
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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by MaartenH » Mon May 29, 2017 7:44 am

It shows that theory and real life sometimes not the same!
Good thing you have tested this thoroughly!!

I like the two Mosfet solution :)

Is this board ready to make? Or do you still want to test something on the two-Mosfet board?

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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa » Mon May 29, 2017 9:33 am

By double Mosfet, do you mean the one I've posted the pictures on May 19th?
I have the latest one I built installed in a 9x radio that I have just upgraded with an Ar9x board. This one has only one Mosfet transistor for both motherboard and RF power.

There is no final design as I have been for now the only one testing and using this. Andrewju did also test in the beginning and actually designed his own board. He posted a picture a few oosts above.
I didn't post further details because of the lack of interest from the community in this project until now. :( It is hard to see people blowing up their radios when they have a solution here. :(

I have different designs working in several of my radios and all work. My other Ar9x board for example doesn't have the Mosfet on the charging circuit. I just modded the radio's backboard to accept switching the ground of the charging circuit instead of the positive. The Ar9x board does not originally use the charging circuit as it has the USB connector placed where the charging plug used to be.. It also uses the charging connection to the main board to bring the telemetry from the external RF Module..
I think that for the 9xtreme this latest circuit with one MOSFET for both main board power and RF module power will work fine. But of course it needs testing. It would also work well with a stock 9x mainboard.

For the Ar9x board I would probably stick with the design with separate mosfets for the mainboard and RF module power, as I had to mod the Ar9x to accept this design. I didn't really like having to do that when I have something that works fine without doing it.. But hey, we are testing right? :)

With this latest design I still didn't reverse the polarity on the Ar9x board, but I did with a stock 9x radio, and all worked.
Will post the eagle files (if I didn't already) for the one with the single mosfet so you can build a board and try it.
Sorry that this is not a finished project. It would already be if more people would have participated..

João


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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by andrewju » Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:40 am

João,

Did you measure the "power off" current on your new circuit? I recently had a conversation on my local forum regarding the battery drain when radio is OFF. So I rechecked my switch board (that is based on your previous design) and got a very good <1 uA reading. I used a relatively cheap multimeter, but the error shouldn't be too big anyway.

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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:39 am

Yes I did check it.
On my latest design I get virtually nothing, but need the charge protection diode after the Charge circuit Mosfet. Otherwise current will flow through its source resistor and gate resistor to ground.
Of course one could increase those resistors values but I wanted to keep the gate voltage low in case the battery gets disconnected while the charger is ON. My old charger outputs 27V when this happens and the Mosfet I use has a max gate/source voltage of 20V..
Maybe if increasing both resistor values on the same proportion but I didn't try that as the diode worked. It has to be in the circuit anyway, just on a different place..

João

EDIT: By the way, I blew up my multimeter's current measurement fuse while testing this :( Need to try fixing it :(


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Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by andrewju » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:50 am

Ok, nice to know!
jhsa wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:39 am
By the way, I blew up my multimeter's current measurement fuse while testing this :(
Ha-ha! I did that too! :)
I was trying to calibrate a custom firmware for my IMAX B6 clone charger when that happened.
My multimeter had a fuse (the classical one, like a glass bulb), that failed during one of the experiments.
Putting a new one in fixed the problem for me!

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jhsa
Posts: 16675
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:13 pm
Country: Germany

Re: 9X (and possibly 9XR/PRO) Switch Board Design

Post by jhsa » Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:21 am

Yeah, I forgot that on mine the max mA current is 400mA :)

João
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