Flashed Er9x - solving troubles

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FairMan
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Flashed Er9x - solving troubles

Post by FairMan »

Hello all. I flashed my Turnigy 9x (V1 hardware and V2 software, purchased 2010) with Er9x firmware.

Before telling you why I am so disappointed by this firmware, I must note some things regarding flashing the Turnigy 9x.

1) On the main er9x there is no detailed tutorial on flashing the Turnigy 9x.
2) In absolutely no tutorials online, it is mentioned that some boards are version 1 HW, (hardware) and had the SCK pad wrongly placed on pin 8 instead of pin 6.
2) in absolutely no tutorials online, is there any clear pinout and pin order for the ISP connector. I had to google this multiple times, and watch youtube videos. (both being unreliable sources)
3)In absolutely no tutorial online, there is any note that the buttons on the Turnigy 9x must be accessible in order to complete the flashing process!!!
What if the user who is flashing the Turnigy 9x had the device Upside down when flashing? I soldered my wires quickly and left the device open, upside down! And there you go surprise: after flashing is complete, I had to carefully turn the equipment upside down and press Down button, while keepin the wires from touching themselves! This should have been clearly mentioned in the tutorial.
4) There are very poor explanations on how to flash the *hex onto the Atmega controller, I had to watch youtube videos again.

I am disappointed by the official tutorials and sources, they should be written in more detail.

This being said, I managed to flash my radio from the 1st time, went without problem. I used AVR/ISP programmer from Ebay (china) for 1 dollar.
And here I have to mention that there is no information on the Er9x website/wiki regarding LED flashing modes, colors etc. etc.
On my programmer the red LED stayed ON during the whole process.

After I flashed my radio, I was happy I had a new firmware with "many new features".

Wrong.

But before going with the down side, let me first mention some good thins. I threw my old NiMh 8 cell pack, because it had high internal resistance and had extremely high voltage drop. I am now using 2 LiIon cells I took from an old laptop battery, they are original LG cells and have 3000 mAh capacity.
I used the Er9x feature to set up voltage alarm to 6.2 volts, and am happy with having li-Ion battery pack working fine.

Then I went through the menus, set up my name, set up proper standard channel order (Aileron, Elevator, Throttle, Rudder) (but why were the channels ordered wrong in the first place? Why no standard channel order was being used? Ail to Ch1, elevator to Ch2, Throttle to Ch3 and etc. etc. has been the standard channel layout throughout the years? Why did someone had to change this?

The next big disappointment: There is NO DIGITAL TRIM. I cannot believe I cannot set the midpoints of my servos using Digital Trim!!!! Even the stock c**p firmware had this feature!

And the next thing I simply cannot stand (and will probably be the reason I will be deleting this firmware from my device) is the fact that I cannot set servo throw to be more than 100!!!

I accidentaly found out this while setting up Throttle cut (I fly mainly Internal Combustion powered models)
I have a model that was using throttle cut with the vanilla (original) Turnigy 9x firmware, I had the servo throw to go up to 100, but when I pressed the throttle cut, it would go to -120 (minus 20 from the minimum throw.

But in Er9x I cannot set throw more than 100 and less than -100 !!!

Another thing I didn't like is the mixer setup interface and templates. I am still trying to figure out how this unintuitive interface is going to work and am reading the manual.

Mean while if someone knows which OpenTx firmware version is compatible with Turnigy 9x (stock hardware, NO custom MB,) please tell me because I would like to try out this too.

To the Er9x devs:
Thank you for making this custom firmware, but I hope you will address soon fix the issues mentioned above.
Last edited by FairMan on Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Kilrah
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Re: Flashed Er9x - extremely disapointed

Post by Kilrah »

FairMan wrote: Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:20 am Then I went through the menus, set up my name, set up proper standard channel order (Aileron, Elevator, Throttle, Rudder) (but why were the channels ordered wrong in the first place? Why no standard channel order was being used? Ail to Ch1, elevator to Ch2, Throttle to Ch3 and etc. etc. has been the standard channel layout throughout the years?
Nope. Different orders have been used by different manufacturers for decades.
FairMan wrote: Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:20 am The next big disappointment: There is NO DIGITAL TRIM. I cannot believe I cannot set the midpoints of my servos using Digital Trim!!!! Even the stock c**p firmware had this feature!
Of course there is.
FairMan wrote: Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:20 am And the next thing I simply cannot stand (and will probably be the reason I will be deleting this firmware from my device) is the fact that I cannot set servo throw to be more than 100!!!
Of course you can, manual page 40. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6473#p90349

The hardware side of things indeed is a bit of a pain since the 9X stock board mods are becoming obsolete and many documentation sources seem to have gone offline, might want to ping a few places that used to host them to see if they can get them back online.
But the software documentation is pretty complete, and of course the functionality is VERY complete - everything you complained about is possible and documented, so the problem is on your side really.
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jhsa
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Re: Flashed Er9x - extremely disapointed

Post by jhsa »

In first place, how much did you pay for the Er9x firmware to be bashing it the way you are, specially when you have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about? Er9x does all you have mentioned and much more.
The firmware (that is open source), the manuals and the videos you have watched were all made by people FOR FREE. People spent many hours doing all that work.
If you don't like it, feel free to do it yourself the way you think it's correct. Feel also free to modify the firmware to work the way you want.

OpenTX works exactly the same way as Er9x as it was forked from it some time ago.
As far as I am concerned, you have offended many people that have put a lot of their valuable time on the stuff you've complained about.
You have no idea of what you are talking about, it would have been nicer if you asked instead of bashing Er9x. Again it doesn't work BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T LEARN HOW TO WORK WITH IT.
And when we don't know, we ask.

So. Do yourself (and ourselves) a favor, uninstall Er9x. You don't deserve to use it. You won't get any help, at least from me, unless you change your attitude, and at least apologize to Mike. He worked on this firmware FOR FREE for thousands of hours, so we can enjoy a very powerful system, FOR FREE..

João

EDIT: I have just looked at your user name "FairMan".. Really?? :o





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MikeB
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Re: Flashed Er9x - extremely disapointed

Post by MikeB »

Did you look at the WIKI on this forum?

1) There have been many tutorials in many places. I needed to put the release versions of the firmware somewhere, which is where www.er9x.com comes in. I'll look to add a link to the source code on Github, (https://github.com/MikeBland/mbtx) where there are links to such tutorials.
2)The V1 hardware problem has been mentioned in a number of tutorials, you just didn't see one of those.
2!) Documented by Atmel.
3) Not normal, there should be NO need to press any buttons to complete the flashing process.
4) See the WIKI.

"I am disappointed by the official tutorials and sources, they should be written in more detail." All are done in peoples "spare" time, new contributors are always welcome!

There are many different programmers used, I certainly don't have then all to test/document.

A warning regarding the supply voltage. The 5V regulator used on the 9X usually needs at least 7V in to function correctly (i is NOT a low dropout regulator). Operating from a voltage as low as 6.2V is not recommended. Make sure you have "Bandgap" enabled in the radio setup to be sure the displayed voltage is correct. I had to add this feature to allow for the 5V supply dropping when the battery voltage dropped below 7V.

Have you read the manual? (See: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6473, downloaded over 18000 times!).

Reading the manual will show you may choose the default channel order to use.
By "DIGITAL TRIM" I assume you mean sub-trim. This is present in the LIMITS menu. You may also set the centre positions of you servos using the normal trims, then have these copied to the sub-trim values, centering the normal trims at the same time.

Enable "extended limits" (E. Limits) allows up to +/- 125%. NOTE that 100% on er9x is already equivalent to about 125% on many other radios.

The mixer is, indeed, different to many commercial radios, but is very powerful and flexible (openTx is the same). Most people, once they understand how it works, say they don't want to go back to the way commercial radios work.

"Thank you for making this custom firmware, but I hope you will address soon fix the issues mentioned above." I believe there are NO issues that need fixing in the firmware.

Help with documentation is always welcome.

Mike.
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Kilrah
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Re: Flashed Er9x - extremely disapointed

Post by Kilrah »

Mike did you fix the Wiki today? The whole issue he had about hardware is that it was defaced and probably has been so for a few weeks/months, so all guides that relied on it were gone.

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Re: Flashed Er9x - extremely disapointed

Post by MikeB »

I was going to refer him to the WIKI, but noticed the problem before I did so. I contacted Rob, as I thought he needed to know something had happened, and he sorted the WIKI.

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Re: Flashed Er9x - extremely disapointed

Post by Kilrah »

Good. Noticed this afternoon and was going to send a heads up to Rob tonight, but you got in first.
FairMan
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Re: Flashed Er9x - extremely disapointed

Post by FairMan »

Hello all, I already managed to fix most of the issues in the first post!!!
I just cannot understand how the 1st row (value) in the Limits menu does and how it works. I set it to lets say 10, and I suddenly lose all of my control throw.

I solved the Throttle cut" to "minus 25" problem. Now my throttle goes from -100 to +100, and when I press throttle cut I get instant -125. So this is good.

I found the hidden Hardware menu, and enabled it, but I cannot figure out how to set dead-zone for the gimbals.

As for the subtrim, it would be really nice if we have a separate menu, with visualization so that we can see the new "customized" midpoint movement. (similar to the main screen)

I cannot figure out how the "Templates" work though. I open the Template menu and selecta template by holding the select button. What happens? Is this template "selected", "applied", "turned on"? No indication whatsoever. If I want to disable template (for example the throttle cut) how do I do it?
I am still going through the manual.

I am frustrated because although the original firmware was bugged and limited, I could use it without ever needing the manual. It was somewhat more intuitive.
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Re: Flashed Er9x - extremely disapointed

Post by FairMan »

Sorry if you understood me wrong, I have not meant to offend anyone, I was just frustrated by the new firmware, as you can see I already fixed the control throw problem and Throttle cut on my own without even having to read the manual. I will continue to read and test multiple functions of the FW now....
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Re: Flashed Er9x - extremely disapointed

Post by FairMan »

I got the SubTrim working, the Centering by usage of the gymbal is very useful feature!!!

I just cant understand how templates are supposed to work, I have problem understanding any of this:
"Templates are starting points for model setups. When selected with [MENU LONG] they will either add to or replace the current model's mixes and settings with standard ones for a particular usage scenario. Best applied to a newly created model, they can be tweaked to achieve the desired result, or simply used to get an idea of what's required for the particular model type. "


Does it mean that only one template can be used at a time? and if I select another template it will replace the previously selected ones?
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Re: Flashed Er9x - extremely disapointed

Post by FairMan »

MikeB wrote: Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:08 pm 3) Not normal, there should be NO need to press any buttons to complete the flashing process.

A warning regarding the supply voltage. The 5V regulator used on the 9X usually needs at least 7V in to function correctly (i is NOT a low dropout regulator). Operating from a voltage as low as 6.2V is not recommended. Make sure you have "Bandgap" enabled in the radio setup to be sure the displayed voltage is correct. I had to add this feature to allow for the 5V supply dropping when the battery voltage dropped below 7V.
In this video, you can clearly see that the "Down Button" must be pressed, in order to complete the flashing process! And this is Er9x firmware asking me to do so. (of course video is NOT mine, but I get the exact same screen).

https://youtu.be/eXwVpabmICw?t=1080

It says: "Bad eeprom data, press the 'Down key' (fullscreen the video at 720p so you can clearly see the message.

And here is ANOTHER video, by another person, Same message, same procedure: "Bad eeprom data, press Down"

https://youtu.be/Jyz-LgmIssQ?t=553

And a 3rd video with the same prompt:

https://youtu.be/37wrNefdEZU?t=819

As for the 2 cell Li Ion battery I installed, I followed RCModelReviews.com tutorial, this guy is 100 percent legit, makes very nice reviews on different RC systems:

http://www.rcmodelreviews.com/tendollarbattery.shtml

Are you sure it's dangerous to use 2 cell Li Ion pack? Most of the 2.5 Ghz modules work on 5 volts, the other volts get transformed into head and go in the atmosphere, thanx to the poor linear voltage regulators.
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Re: Flashed Er9x - extremely disapointed

Post by jhsa »

A template do not create a new model.
A template can add to the existing programming on the model, or can replace all the mixes on that model. For example, if you just want to add a Sticky throttle cut, the "Sticky T-Cut" template will create a safety switch on the throttle channel. For example if your throttle channel is Ch1, it will create something like

Safety switches

Ch1 X THR -100
Where "X" indicates that sticky T-Cut is selected, THR is the switch that activate it. and -100 is the weight the throttle is going to be at when the T-Cut is active.

As I said above, some templates replace the current mixes. For example if you add a V-Tail mix, it will replace the mixes on the relevant channels.

If you are not happy with the template, you can either select another model, and delete the other model, or just crerate another model and start over again with a fresh model. This is perhaps the best option to avoid surprises. You could also just apply the "Simple 4 channel" template. It will replace all in the mixer with 4 new default mixes in the mixer.

Something else, when you change the default channel order, it only affects new models, not the existing ones, obviously for safety reasons.
I for example have different models with different channel order programmed on my radio. I use the multiprotocol module that can bind with several protocols, and some require different channel assignment. This is where the power of this system starts to be evident. And wait until you want to do some more complicated stuff that other radios can't do.. You will see that it's worth the effort to learn to work with the firmware. Look at it as a completely new concept..

Just be nice to us and you will get all the help you need here.. This is a friendly forum and we want to keep it like this.

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jhsa
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Re: Flashed Er9x - extremely disapointed

Post by jhsa »

You can use any battery, as long as the voltage does not drop below 7V. If it does, the 5V regulator won't work properly and you might not have the needed stable 5V for the radio to function.

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Kilrah
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Re: Flashed Er9x - extremely disapointed

Post by Kilrah »

FairMan wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:31 pm In this video, you can clearly see that the "Down Button" must be pressed, in order to complete the flashing process! And this is Er9x firmware asking me to do so. (of course video is NOT mine, but I get the exact same screen).
It has nothing to do with the the flashing process, and can be done at any time later even after cutting power, disconnecting everything etc the next time you power the radio up. And as the screen says you can press any key. No idea where you got the idea that it MUST be the down key and it MUST be done there and then.
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MikeB
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Re: Flashed Er9x - extremely disapointed

Post by MikeB »

Do you have eepe installed on your PC? This program lets you edit models and simulate them on the PC.

The AVR processor includes some "option fuses". One of these, if set, prevents the EEPROM from being erased when you flash new firmware. If not set, then every time you flash new firmware you will get the EEPROM erased resulting in the "Bad EEPROM" message.
eepe includes an option to set this fuse.

Regardless of RCModelReviews (he is wrong about the voltage), don't let the battery supply drop below 7 volts, the regulator needs 2 volts "headroom" to work properly.

er9x doesn't have the ability to set a dead zone at the gimbal centre (yet). I may be able to add it for MEGA128 and MEGA2561 processors, but the original MEGA64 processor just doesn't have the spare flash memory to add it.

The limits menu has 4 values on each row.These apply to a specific channel.
The first value is the sub-trim. The second and third values are the channel end points. If you set one of these to 10, then you limit one side of the channel movement to just 10%. The fourth value selects normal or reverse operation.
For the channel you are editing, the current channel output, im microseconds, is shown on the top line of the display, 1500 for the centre.

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Re: Flashed Er9x - extremely disapointed

Post by FairMan »

Hello and thanx for the help! I wish the templates were easier to understand and set, but I guess I will have to live with how they work at the moment.

As for the deadband, it would be really cool to have such option at least for the 2 gimbals or for 2 channels (aileron and elevator, most important ones)
After all the 9x is a cheap radio with cheap mechanics and pots, and having a dead zone would greatly help us get rid of any play in the mechanics.

As for the voltage, I will set the alarm to 7 volts , thanx for the advice. I'm using quality Li Ion cells from laptop batteries, they can be charged up to 4.35 volts, and discharged to 3 volts, but discharging them to 3.5 volts is not a bad idea too. Should actually increase their effective life.
Something else, when you change the default channel order, it only affects new models, not the existing ones, obviously for safety reasons.
I for example have different models with different channel order programmed on my radio.
Yep, I already found this on my own.

By the way, I would really like to know what is the technical reason why you guys decided to use wider signal "width" than the standard while having the control throw at 100? What is the reason behind this? If I want to set up the control throw to be as in "standard" radio, I have to set the throw values from -80 to 80 right?
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Re: Flashed Er9x - extremely disapointed

Post by Kilrah »

Again there are multiple "standards" for that too. 80% is compared to Spektrum, not sure about others.
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Re: Flashed Er9x - extremely disapointed

Post by jhsa »

If you have plenty, you use only what you need. Others might need more, so, be happy that at least er9x can deliver what you need..

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Re: Flashed Er9x - extremely disapointed

Post by FairMan »

Kilrah wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:23 pm Again there are multiple "standards" for that too. 80% is compared to Spektrum, not sure about others.
I really wish I could get a solid answer on that question.

Joa I am happy for now,for the things I wrote above, I hope the devs consider them and include additional stuff to improve the firmware even better :)

For example right now I don't have 16 airplanes, so I can live with 8 saves for models and no sounds (the sexy lady voice when my battery is low) and if dead zone functionality can be added and templates can be made more intuitive, I think it will be a great addition.

Again, this is just a suggestion.

Now some HW question: if I install the backlight mod, will I be able to set when the backlight will work, or it will stay all the time on?
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Re: Flashed Er9x - extremely disapointed

Post by jhsa »

FairMan wrote: Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:44 pm
I really wish I could get a solid answer on that question.
I don't think there is a solid answer. Even servos are all different with different throws and different centering.
Some radios have travel between 1000ms and 2000ms. Most flight controllers also expect these numbers, Some radios might use 1100ms to 1900ms. Long time ago I remember this being debated and the er9x devs opted for the 988ms to 2012ms. Some of us then realized that we might need more (I do for example) and then the extended limits were created, giving yet more travel when enabled.
At the end of the day, if you need less, just use less, that is why the "Limits" settings exist. Better to have extra when needed, than not having at all :)
This, as you can see, it is a feature, not a problem..

J
oa I am happy for now,for the things I wrote above, I hope the devs consider them and include additional stuff to improve the firmware even better :)
That is what the devs are doing all the time :) ;)
For example right now I don't have 16 airplanes, so I can live with 8 saves for models


Please, think also about other people.. Some of us probably need more than 30 or 40 model slots.
and if dead zone functionality can be added and templates can be made more intuitive, I think it will be a great addition.
Agree with the deadband addition.. Mike already said that he will probably add it to the radios with Atmega128 and 2561. The older model with Atmega64 does not have enough flash memory for that. So, i hope your radio has an Atmega128..

I really don't know how the templates could be made more intuitive. When the are added, they just do what they are supposed to..
Now some HW question: if I install the backlight mod, will I be able to set when the backlight will work, or it will stay all the time on?
Depends on what backlight mod you want to do.. Link to some tutorial you are thinking about following?

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Re: Flashed Er9x - extremely disapointed

Post by ReSt »

FairMan wrote: Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:44 pm and templates can be made more intuitive,
One modification that I use (in that sense) for "my" templates is:
I don't number them 1, 2, ..... but instead of in front of the template line I have added an "R" for "a replacing" (e.g. T-Tail, V-Tail) or a "+" for an "adding" template (e.g. Switches, Sticky Throttle cut").

So it's clear for me that a replacing mix clears everything of the existing model and sets up a completely new model while an adding mix adds new mixer lines to an existing model.

Reinhard
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Re: Flashed Er9x - extremely disapointed

Post by jhsa »

I like the same approach as in eepskye. A popup confirming that the mixes will be replaced. With the confirmation popup, the user has a chance of changing his/her mind before the template is applied..

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Re: Flashed Er9x - extremely disapointed

Post by ReSt »

Make it simple :P
A popup is much more programming effort and needs you to press a key before you see the popup.
A simple "icon" in front of the menu line does the same

(My two cents)

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Re: Flashed Er9x - extremely disapointed

Post by jhsa »

An Icon doesn't allow you to change your mind in case of a wrong key press. I am not lazy and one more key press is not a problem :) Popup menus have been used in er9x and ersky9x to make the firmware much more user friendly, and also to allow many more options in the same place. They are one of the reasons the firmware became much more user friendly :)
An icon in front of the setting as you suggest, is a good idea in addition to the confirmation menu that makes the selection of the template safer. If you make a mistake applying a template, you mess the complete model up and might have to start from scratch. That is a bigger pain than having to press a button once more, in my opinion :) ;)

João

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Re: Flashed Er9x - extremely disapointed

Post by MikeB »

I have the stick deadband in for '128 and '2561 processors, mainly just a case of copying the code from ersky9x. I haven't posted this yet however.

FairMan: Perhaps you could describe what you think of as "more intuitive" for the operation of the templates. Possibly the operation of applying templates is better in eepe. Have you installed eepe on your computer? On eepe, you also have a "Wizard" you may run when creating a new model.

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Re: Flashed Er9x - extremely disapointed

Post by jhsa »

ABBC3_OFFTOPIC
Any chance of having the wizard running on the radio? Ersky9x of course..
A job for a script?? Or not possible at all?
Or am I saying something completely stupid here? ;) :mrgreen:
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Re: Flashed Er9x - extremely disapointed

Post by MikeB »

ABBC3_OFFTOPIC
Could be possible from a script, but I'll need to add some options/functions to the script language to allow it to be able to change things like mix settings.
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Re: Flashed Er9x - extremely disapointed

Post by jhsa »

Wonderful.. :)

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Re: Flashed Er9x - extremely disapointed

Post by FairMan »

HI, again, I'm having the following problem. I connected the radio today to the PC, opened eePe and clicked "read EEPROM from Tx"
and I'm getting the following error:

Error loading file [Directory]

File may be corrupted, old or from a different system. You might need to update eePe to read this file"

I tried auto updating eePe but is says it's not possible to update.

Ok I got it. I screwed around with the program, I first downloaded the Flash to "a file" and then edited it and flashed the Tx with the settings I made on the PC.
Last edited by FairMan on Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Flashed Er9x - extremely disapointed

Post by MikeB »

What processor do you have on your 9X, a '64 or a '128?
Do you have the same processor set in "preferences" on eepe (in 2 places)?

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