New openTX features

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Kilrah
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Re: New openTX features

Post by Kilrah » Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:10 am

Because of the options system.

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Re: New openTX features

Post by Rob Thomson » Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:27 am

The open to project is rather large compared to er9x and sky9x.

In order to retain consistency between the builds a consistent build server is maintained. (Actually two of them)

Google code still provides the repository - but is just part of the puzzle.



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Re: Sv: New openTX features

Post by dvogonen » Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:32 am

Kilrah wrote:
HK do it for the products they requested development for (KK2 board, Afro ESCs etc...)
The guys developed the hardware and did the port of their software to run on it. HK manufactures and sells, and pays back some amount to the devs.

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In the short run and for uncomplicated devices this approach makes total sense. It is much cheaper than hiring engineers and test teams without prior knowledge of the products. Up until now FrSky have made only uncomplicated devices. The Taranis is their first complicated product.

Building and maintaining software for a system like a radio is much more complex than making a one off. At least if you want to uphold a commercial standard.

I was amazed that FrSky relied on software for the Taranis being made by outsiders. Even more so when it became apparent that they didn't pay anyone for the work. If they are serious about building more radios they need to have their own software team controling the effort or set up a permanent arrangement with "outsiders". I am hoping for the latter, but am a bit skeptical. Companies usually want to keep their resources close and controllable.

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Re: New openTX features

Post by jhsa » Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:52 am

If They close the fw on the next radio it will be a disaster.... for them
I've been waiting for it, but I won't buy it..


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Re: New openTX features

Post by Rob Thomson » Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:55 am

I dont think that would be the plan - they did say they would always be open source.

Guess it is a distiction between community controlled and internal controlled open source.
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Re: New openTX features

Post by keithTaranis » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:32 pm

Hi all, I was in the software business for my entire working years. ( I am now retired 62 )I have many times felt that it was thankless.. But I still enjoyed the challenge. I am still looking forward to making some kind of contribution, if i am able. I think you should get something from FrSky and perhaps an annual agreement for the code access from the community. If the open source development goes away I don't see a reason to buy FrSky hardware. I am personally responsible for 2 people this week getting on Wayne's ( Aloft ) waiting list. Aloft is an excellent source for the FrSky hardware and provides impeccable customer service. FrSky will certainly see this outlet grow.
I want to thank all the contributors for such great software. I am impressed and appreciate your hard work and commitment.. I hope things work out for everyone.. I will immediately make a contribution .. Thanks again

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Re: New openTX features

Post by ckleanth » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:34 pm

OK this is what i think is really going on..

Basically OpenTX and the team behind it needs our help..

If you are reading this you are aware that FrSky had chosen to use OpenTx for their first transmitter. Good choice you might say, I said that myself. FrSky took a proven and powerful firmware without paying a cent, provided some people with some prototypes, and cash in the profits...
Whats wrong with the above? you might say... they implemented the perfect business model. Get someone else to do the work for you... then pass the work for your own.. I'm sure you all remember the first version of the FrSky OpenTx fork and the scandal it created (they called it an engineers mistake) by removing all credits of the actual people who created the firmware. Here I need to remind you, when you pick the Taranis up and switch it on, if it had no firmware, that CPU would do nothing, it wouldn't even switch on. If it had any other firmware Frsky might had come up with, well it wouldn't be the Taranis you all feel proud of owning or desire to purchase, as it wouldn't have the demand it has now.

Well the problem is that its not the Taranis that makes OpenTx, Its exactly the opposite and as far as I can see the success that Taranis has had contributes absolutely NOTHING to the OpenTx project. I'm saying this because I have not seen any named contribution from Frsky in the contribution list. If there is one I apologise that I missed it.

Now Frsky and the OpenTx team were trying to come to a financial agreement, I think even before the transmitter was launched but the OpenTx team had no levy in their favour. Being an open source project also means they cant force FrSky to come to the table and discuss. As sales flourished, demand was high with cash coming, FrSky decided to ramp up production and move to a bigger facility.

On the OpenTx front, OpenTx problem is its own success... More OpenTx users means more submissions, issues, good ideas for future implementation, rubbish ideas that have to be filtered... But what this means is more work for the same team that is providing this software for free, on their own expense, on their own "free time". Not sure how many but I'd hazard a guess that most of them have a day job, kids, wife, mortgage to pay, then they are into rc so they want to have some time to fly something, tinker an aircraft... Put your self in their shoes...

In addition FrSky management has lost its way. They think FrSky will conquer the world, they are talking c**p about payable firmware that one can go to the Frsky app server and buy the functions you want, c**p like that...I was not present in this discussion I was just told about this, yet this is what OpenTx team was up against..

You and I know this is just wrong, FrSky should provide financial support, let them decide how much and how they do it. But they need to provide support because the project has become unmanageable and cannot run for free. Donations wont cut it, we are talking about people actually working on the software making it better for you and me...

Bernards post was never regarding server costs, thats rubbish. My only criticism was that
a) that he didn't come forward asking us for help. this shouldn't be my post, this should had come from him.
b) he should had done absolute nothing developing more of OpenTx unless FrSky agrees some financial help to the project... Frsky doesn't have to but they should do it.

What can we do about it?

Stop buying the thing. Boycott any FrSky purchases unless they come to terms that their success is the software and not the the plastic and the pieces of pcb board and resistors the transmitter is made from... Stop making videos about the taranis. Send an email to frsky asking them to wake up and help the OpenTx project by agreeing financial help.
Spread the word...

http://frsky-rc.com/contact/contact.php

Kind Regards
George
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Re: New openTX features

Post by tilmanb » Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:07 am

I'm glad for FrSky to supply a great hardware to run opentx on. The 9x format was on it's last leg.
Opentx would have been ported even if FrSky had not chosen to use opentx as the main firmware. Same way it went with the 9x.
They did credit the project in their documentation. Despite the credits page snafu.

Morally FrSky owes this project a lot.
But even if they never sponsor the project (they should) they did provide a hackable hardware, just what the community needed.

Linux devs don't get paid by hardware vendors.
But many hardware vendors sponsor projects to push for good integration and support.
Many just freeload.

Same here. If FrSky wants to be on good terms with the developers they should show gratitude. And if they want a favour in the future they will earn the seeds they have planted.

But the community does not depend them.
In most free software projects live well despite the absence of any interest by the hardware they enable.
Who knows perhaps tomorrow another cool hackable transmitter gets released by another company and suddenly FrSky sees itself left in the dust.

9xr pro comes soon. Who knows what's next...
FrSky could be shaping a wonderful collaboration or they can totally **** it up.
But it's for us to deal with that either way.

I think we should all relax and be constructive.
Making financial demands on a vendor only makes sense if they feel morally obliged themselves. Because legally they only need to respect the GPL.
In the meanwhile what can _we_ do to continue to have the most kickass radio in the world?

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Re: New openTX features

Post by aadamson » Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:26 am

Personally, and everyone has their own opinions, but George, I think your response is *exactly* the *WRONG* thing to do... I had this exact conversation with Bertrand.

This whole thing has gone sideways... it's not about the operating costs, it appears even though it started that way, it now seems it's about "software for hire". THE ONLY WAY, that can, or should have happened is by contract *before* the first like of code was released. *AND* before it was put under GPL 2.0.

The horse has left the barn now, and the only way to fix this problem is to make openTX be the absolute BEST it can be. It should right now, work to add as many features as it can, create its own financial model with subscriptions etc. All the things that have been suggested.

It should *GET above* all the c**p instead of looking for the golden bullet. It's not going to come... Doesn't matter if you boycott or not... It will live on and no-one will get paid. To even suggest it in the forums that you did I really find as awkward as the original post.

What needs to happen is that OpenTX needs to show the world and Frsky, that they *can't live without it*... NOT THAT THEY CAN by boycott or by Hostage of features, etc.

For example. Tomorrow, they should make C9X be available by subscription. They should create a bug fix release for free via command line flash, and make feature releases available only through C9X. Cripple C9X if you like and give that away for free, so you can only edit eeproms, you can't load firmware with it, unless you pay for the license, etc.

Let Frsky do what they want, if they violate the GPL, then make sure they know they did with a Legal letter etc. But to think that boycott is going to do anything is giving people way too much credit. You have to assume it's going to do NOTHING and go from there.

I felt like the conversation among the user base was headed in the right directions... 1.5 came out, it was with a current release of the firmware. Romolo was being active again on the forums... People were sharing information, behind the scenes I was hopefully that *the team* was working to create a mechanism to gain a revenue stream.

But now this... not only back to square one, but well behind that... if the user base does what you want... you'll do exactly what you shouldn't do... you'll have killed opentx.... The reason... something else will come out to replace it... maybe even something based upon it...

I really hope you'll reconsider your request for all of it's flaws...

ps. don't you hate keyboards... I can set here not knowing you, without seeing your face and I can type all of this... And hey, I'm just the new kid on the block...
Last edited by aadamson on Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New openTX features

Post by tilmanb » Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:47 am

Yea some of the talk here is so corrosive and unconstructive that I nearly wish for a fork just get it behind us and move on.

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Re: New openTX features

Post by EjectSteve » Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:59 am

I would pay for Companion. It's rare in the "non sponsored" opensource world to have something that updates and works in such a solid way. Of course if you charge, people are going to expect more than forum support. Especially those that can't get the USB drivers working. In normal open source, you are lucky if you can get the install to work and find instructions. Companion9x works as well as any 'business' software I use.

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Re: New openTX features

Post by Rob Thomson » Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:14 am

Agreed.

A mass boycott would not solve anything. It would only drive Frsky to actually fork the firmware!

I personally feel that FrSky do owe the team allot of thanks. A little sponsorship would be great - but cannot be demanded.

Taranis has been a massive success, and imho - this is largely attributed to the work the community / team have done to make it that way. On the flip side - the radio would never have existed without the finance FrSky put in to actually develop the hardware!

Moving forward - the best thing is to keep a GOOD RELATIONSHIP up between all parties. Once where all feel they gain, and get something out of it.

Rob
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Re: New openTX features

Post by MikeB » Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:22 am

Just to add a bit more background, FrSky provided the schematics for the hardware design early on, and as a result of feedback they changed the design. So, it's not only the software for which they had useful input.

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Re: New openTX features

Post by PaulL » Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:53 am

Just a thought, but how about a USB Dongle or "Special" USB lead
This would be required to Update future Firmware

The proceeds of Dongle sales could be used to support the entire project
aka "Reflex"

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Re: New openTX features

Post by bertrand35 » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:02 am

OpenTX is all but closed.

Dongles, cryptographic chips etc. you may forget them ;)

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Re: New openTX features

Post by tilmanb » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:03 am

PaulL wrote:Just a thought, but how about a USB Dongle or "Special" USB lead
This would be required to Update future Firmware

The proceeds of Dongle sales could be used to support the entire project
Very un-opensource and pretty clearly against GPLv2

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Re: New openTX features

Post by PaulL » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:23 am

bertrand35 wrote:OpenTX is all but closed.

Dongles, cryptographic chips etc. you may forget them ;)
Really bad news, Is it really finished ?
aka "Reflex"

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Re: New openTX features

Post by tilmanb » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:26 am

Hehe, nice language slip here. I'm sure he meant anything but closed.

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Re: New openTX features

Post by PaulL » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:32 am

aka "Reflex"

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Re: New openTX features

Post by tilmanb » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:41 am

That is about Taranis not OpenTX. OpenTX is GPL licensed, end of story.
If FrSky want to make their own firmware, they are welcome to do so. It would be insanity of them if they targeted it at the same people. But Beginners could benefit greatly from a dumbed down Spektrum DX7 like firmware.
In fact that was the plan from FrSky from the beginning. Have OpenTX as a alternative for professionals who want the most. (They pulled out of that before the release and I think that was a good idea.)

OpenTX will still run on the hardware. And OpenTX will be opensource.

Little more concerning is what FrSky will do in the future. But as long as they support OpenTX I will buy their stuff.

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Re: New openTX features

Post by bertrand35 » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:42 am

PaulL wrote:
bertrand35 wrote:OpenTX is all but closed.

Dongles, cryptographic chips etc. you may forget them ;)
Really bad news, Is it really finished ?
Did I write that? I only mean that we don't like too much dongles, and everything you can imagine on this side

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Re: New openTX features

Post by ckleanth » Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:22 pm

So bernard which route is OpenTx (we) heading?
Can we have a full disclosure please?
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Re: New openTX features

Post by PaulL » Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:17 pm

bertrand35 wrote:
PaulL wrote:
bertrand35 wrote:OpenTX is all but closed.

Dongles, cryptographic chips etc. you may forget them ;)
Really bad news, Is it really finished ?
Did I write that? I only mean that we don't like too much dongles, and everything you can imagine on this side
Yes. you wrote that
Thanks for the clarification on Dongles

Just looking for a way for you to cover costs ;)
aka "Reflex"

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Re: New openTX features

Post by ShowMaster » Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:15 pm

So supply the Frsky with the a good stable version and offer updates for their site to them for a fee. At the same time offer C9X as a subscription program if it's used for FW updates as an after market program. Same for eepe and eeoskye or merge them all?

There will be those that find a way to "share the code " without paying but then their names won't be on the good guy list.

I say come up with a fee and maybe even have a special forum section for registered pgm owners? You can read but not post without a pin#.
I've honestly been holding off to see if er9x was going to be ported over or merged and if I liked the Taranis. I held off until I owned a Taranis and I'm sure many are. Up until the Taranis I had a choice of eepe or openTX. Now that I own a Taranis that only uses openTX and I'm using it, I have no reason not to support openTX. I still need and like er9x and eepe for my other radios.
So I'm onboard to support both openTX and er9x but I don't have a clue what that amount should be?
The minute ooenTX became part of a commercial product that depends on it and apparently donations it became messy! Many new Taranis owners don't have a clue about the FW support issue. They may expect a FREE ride!
If those involved will just post an amount for a subscription service maybe the $ will start rolling in and Frsky can stick it!
Month, 6mo, yearly via Paypal. Some may only want to update every so often, others like myself will want it all!
Maybe a 30 day free trial for all new Taranis owners so they can try it? Of course the OEM FW should be available if they want to go back after 30 days.

So a small donation of some guess amount or a year subscription amount in print I can make sense of?
Let's decide and get on with it! Maybe Jan 1 for the new year?

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Re: New openTX features

Post by bertrand35 » Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:39 pm

As I wrote earlier, I think openTX will continue working as before, but with a small (annual?) fee to help us to pay the compilation server expenses (for those who need it).

In any case openTX will always remain free and open, which means that everybody is allowed to copy / modify / redistribute / make money / etc. with it, provided the GPL license is respected.

So ... don't worry! The screenshots you have seen will be commited in the coming weeks. I still need to find the time and energy to work on companion9x to support all these new things, it's a lot of work, the conversions for the virtual inputs are complex, but with the help of Romolo it will be done ... Those who want to give an hand are welcome!

Again thanks for your support

Bertrand (on behalf of the openTX team)

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Re: New openTX features

Post by aadamson » Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:42 pm

bertrand35 wrote:As I wrote earlier, I think openTX will continue working as before, but with a small (annual?) fee to help us to pay the compilation server expenses (for those who need it).

In any case openTX will always remain free and open, which means that everybody is allowed to copy / modify / redistribute / make money / etc. with it, provided the GPL license is respected.

So ... don't worry! The screenshots you have seen will be commited in the coming weeks. I still need to find the time and energy to work on companion9x to support all these new things, it's a lot of work, the conversions for the virtual inputs are complex, but with the help of Romolo it will be done ... Those who want to give an hand are welcome!

Again thanks for your support

Bertrand (on behalf of the openTX team)
Yeah!!!! Thats the kind of information that needs to be shared with all of us and among all of us!!!

Excellent news Bertand.

I may try to help on the opentx side... you don't want/need my help on the application side... I'm a much better embedded guy than a UI guy :)...

Alan

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Re: New openTX features

Post by rwsams » Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:24 pm

I'm still in awe of the quality and functionality of openTX. I'm waiting for my Taranis, but my FlySky 9x with Telemetrez and openTX is two orders of magnitude better than the original firmware and a great radio!
Thank you all very much,
It's payday today. I'll make my contribution.
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Re: New openTX features

Post by ShowMaster » Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:58 pm

Come up with the C9X fee and maybe add a banner that says it's not freeware at startup every time. Those wishing to honor it and also make the banner go away can click on a link to register their copy.
I think most users will get the hint and do the right thing especially if they don't like the Frsky or HK FW support their radios come with.
The idea is to try keep it as a donation based utility but with nagware at startup for an unregistered copy. That can be temporary!
That may ramp up the money coming in ASAP as classy people can't ignore the message being out there too long.
Assuming it was $10 or $20 a year times every opentx or Taranis owner using C9X would that be enough revenue?

If it isn't it's a start and can always be rethought
If Frsky would at least endorse or recommend C9X and openTX on their site as a advanced upgrade with a link, that too would get the message out there at no cost to Frsky.

Also asking the dealers that sell the Taranis to add a c9x link as a recommended upgrade for advanced features over the OEM FW at time of purchase. That too would generate funds that may not happen later. When I buy something new I usually add extras to it because I want it all and it's there to click on.

I realize it's too easy for us users to try and tell the C9X developers what to do but we've never had a $# needed to fund the future or what the shortfall is, or up to now finding out that Frsky and HK hasn't funded the FW development.
I think we're all trying to help that can but agree we can't donate thousands so others get a free ride. We've all got to share the load and I think the classy persons are ready to do our part if a $ amount was decided on ASAP,
Do it now before other Taranis radios are delivered or ordered to get the message out there. You buy this radio with a working FW as with any Rc system, but not the free future FW features and additions unless it's directly from Frsky!
BTW, this should also be the same for eepe and eepskye before HK releases the new pro radio. With its features and possibly lower entry cost, it may become very popular very fast!

No battery, no metal case, no receiver as before but with all the features of the skyboard. Basically a al la carte system that supports Spektrum and Frsky that talks and has telemetry a RTC and SD card wired. Just plug in what you need or own.
These all are just plastic boxes with switches and gimbals without FW.
Time to act!

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Re: New openTX features

Post by pmullen503 » Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:50 pm

ShowMaster wrote:Come up with the C9X fee and maybe add a banner that says it's not freeware at startup every time. Those wishing to honor it and also make the banner go away can click on a link to register their copy............

...........Do it now before other Taranis radios are delivered or ordered to get the message out there. You buy this radio with a working FW as with any Rc system, but not the free future FW features and additions unless it's directly from Frsky!
BTW, this should also be the same for eepe and eepskye before HK releases the new pro radio. With its features and possibly lower entry cost, it may become very popular very fast!.......
I think that's a good idea. Companion and eepe add a lot of value to the FW. The simulator alone is worth paying for and trying to do anything but a simple model with just a few buttons scrolling through page after page of menus gets old real fast.

Keep the cost reasonable, let people know it supports future development, and I think there will be little resistance.

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Re: New openTX features

Post by xtrmtrk » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:03 pm

I'm speaking just for myself, but I'd be more than happy to pay for a download subscription - maybe $25/year/transmitter?

I think it's important to keep the source code publicly available to keep in the Open Source spirit of things, and if anyone wants to download and build sources on their own there should be no impediment to doing that. But if I want a Companion9X based automated way to keep my transmitters up-to-date, that has a lot of value and I for one would be happy to pay for it.

Just the perspective of one very happy user.

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