Sending SBUS Over BT and Receive Telemetry.

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jhsa
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Sending SBUS Over BT and Receive Telemetry.

Post by jhsa » Fri Jul 08, 2016 12:45 pm

Mike, we can send SBUS from eepe/eepskye to the radio over BT and control the model so we can program it from the computer and see immediately the results on the model itself.
Would it be possible to send telemetry data back to eepskye/eepe at the same time, using the same BT connection? That would allow us to program also the telemetry, related voice alarms, and check all is working correctly, all from the computer.
Could this be done??

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Re: Sending SBUS Over BT and Receive Telemetry.

Post by MikeB » Fri Jul 08, 2016 3:07 pm

In theory yes. What will definitely be needed is for eepe/eepskye to be able to 'understand' the telemetry data. To do this properly would mean it would need to process FrSky Hub, FrSky SPort, DSM and possibly MavLink as well. Then the simulator will need to handle the resulting values.
The BT code in ersky9x may need a tweak to allow relaying of the telemetry as well as handling the SBUS, that I would need to check on.

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Re: Sending SBUS Over BT and Receive Telemetry.

Post by jhsa » Fri Jul 08, 2016 3:14 pm

Thanks Mike, I think it would make a great tool even better :)
Being able to manage, adjust, and program the telemetry while programming the model would be great. it would also help testing and configuring sensors like the openXsensor.

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Re: Sending SBUS Over BT and Receive Telemetry.

Post by MikeB » Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:57 pm

After a bit of thought I'm not sure how useful this would be. If you want to test, for example, the flight battery low voltage alarm, this would only be possible if the battery was at the alarm voltage level. Likewise, if you want to test an altitude alarm, this would require the model to be at the required altitude.

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Re: Sending SBUS Over BT and Receive Telemetry.

Post by jhsa » Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:27 pm

Well, while i said testing the openXsensor, I did speak about configuring and programming, which is what we do with eepskye, correct?
It would be possible to calibrate and configure the voltage sensors, comparing the voltage to a multimeter reading, current sensors, etc. Of course not the altitude sensors, but you could calibrate (and test) many other sensors. Another one that comes to mind is for example an RPM sensor, a fuel sensor.
Also I did think about using the A1 and A2 ports to give real feedback of the position of some mechanical systems in the aircraft. an hypothetical example would be for example to check if the landing gear is really locked avoiding the servo to be stalled during all flight. i had something like this working on my quadcopter, but instead of telemetry it used LEDs that would turn ON, or OFF, depending if the self made landing gear was locked or not, and therefore it would let me know if the servos were stalled. Please check the short video linked below. At the time I built it, the telemetry implementation on er9x was still quite young compared to today.
Here is the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-zZNs5oX9M

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Re: Sending SBUS Over BT and Receive Telemetry.

Post by jhsa » Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:45 pm

MikeB wrote:After a bit of thought I'm not sure how useful this would be. If you want to test, for example, the flight battery low voltage alarm, this would only be possible if the battery was at the alarm voltage level.
As i said on my post above, you could use eepskye to calibrate the voltage comparing it to the reading of your voltmeter, and adjust the range.
You could also test the alarms if you use a variable power supply, which I do, as i don't want to run a complete lipo battery inside my house. I don't even have props on when I configure the models, so a variable power supply is a must. This means that YES, we could even test the alarms when configuring them in eepskye, which is something we have the options to, but we can't do anything with them currently ;)
Likewise, if you want to test an altitude alarm, this would require the model to be at the required altitude.
Likewise, if you want to test an altitude alarm, you could probably test it with the same variable power supply and a scaler??
Of course, not with the sensor itself, but, I think I've read somewhere on this forum that some people did make some testing by inserting the sensor in a plastic bag and creating some change in pressure.
So, i guess there are many possibilities..

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Re: Sending SBUS Over BT and Receive Telemetry.

Post by jhsa » Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:23 pm

Just thought of a more unusual application :)

Don't have a voltmeter? Your voltmeter broke down? NO PROBLEM :)
Just get a receiver with a suitable voltage divider or serial voltage sensor, connect to eepskye, and you have an improvised voltmeter for your electronic projects :D ;)

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Re: Sending SBUS Over BT and Receive Telemetry.

Post by Kilrah » Sat Jul 09, 2016 7:37 am

So instead of just taking your receiver and radio to look at the value you would now need a PC too?

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Re: Sending SBUS Over BT and Receive Telemetry.

Post by jhsa » Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:43 am

Don't you also use companion to configure your models Kilrah? Is not what it is designed for? To program models on PC?
Well it is a shame that Companion cannot connect to the model and configure it lkke eepe/eepskye do :)

So as eepskye can actually connect to a model so we can actually program it from the PC, I think it would be nice that it could also program most of the telemetry. Like that we could do the complete job from the PC. Otherwise we can't actually do anything with most.of the telemetry values in eepskye, as we don't get any telemetry feedback from the model at the moment.

I really think you should consider implementing this on opentx and companion, as it is a great feature.
Actually this feature was originally meant for opentx. As far as I remember a user from tuis forum started the project using companion, but you guys refused it. Mike did like the idea and implemented it in eepe and eepskye.
The new menus in ErSky9x are fantastic but it is still easier to do the job using a big screen and a mouse, and also insert the values with a keyboard.
We can already program the model since quite a while, the only thing missing to completely program it on the PC is the telemetry.

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Re: RE: Re: Sending SBUS Over BT and Receive Telemetry.

Post by jhsa » Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:52 am

Kilrah wrote:So instead of just taking your receiver and radio to look at the value you would now need a PC too?
Answering this question directly now :)
The radio has a general model loaded so it can work with eepskye. This model is configured so the radio sends exactly the same values you see in eepskye to the model. Please see the project page to understand what I mean. Telemetry settings are all different for different models, so this general model cannot have telemetry programmed. (Remember, this model is only configured to show the right channel values from eepskye, on the model itself. It just relay the information). That would mean having to program the telemetry for the model we are configuring, on the radio itself, as we do now.
My suggestion is to be able to do everything from the PC and for that we need feedback sent from the radio, so we could insert the correct telemetry values in eepskye, and display the values. The hardware is already there. Eepskye CAN and DOES already receive telemetry when connected to a frsky RF module. So it would only need to understand and use the data coming from the radio.

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Re: Sending SBUS Over BT and Receive Telemetry.

Post by Kilrah » Sat Jul 09, 2016 10:53 am

jhsa wrote:Don't you also use companion to configure your models Kilrah?
No, nearly never. At most I make a basic "skeleton" starting point then finish and tweak on the radio. I want the "direct" feel of moving the controls and editing the values on the radio.
jhsa wrote: The radio has a general model loaded so it can work with eepskye.
Which is IMO very stupid and the worst possible way you could go about it, and that's why it's not in OpenTX.

The way it's done involves a way too long chain of separate elements and requirements to be used that makes it:
- A pain to set up (I could literally configure a model from scratch on the radio itself and be done before you've connected and set up everything you need to start making it on the PC)
- Too error-prone for the user due to the many things that have to be set up right before they can use it
- Too error-prone from a technical/development point of view (many separate, chained things in which a bug could cause problems, and that are not widely used enough to catch them)
- Complex to maintain i.e. lots of duplicate work e.g what Mike said for the telemetry handling

It might be an interesting feature for some but should be done completely differently for a better ease of use so that people could actually consider using it, for easier maintenance and for better reliability/safety.

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Re: Sending SBUS Over BT and Receive Telemetry.

Post by jhsa » Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:33 pm

Kilrah wrote:
jhsa wrote:Don't you also use companion to configure your models Kilrah?
No, nearly never. At most I make a basic "skeleton" starting point then finish and tweak on the radio. I want the "direct" feel of moving the controls and editing the values on the radio.
So, you don't have this feature in openTX. As far as I know, you do not use eepskye nor eepe as you use openTX, right? Even if you did, you wouldn't use this feature as you do not even program your models using the computer.
Why your sudden concern about this feature in ersky9x and eepskye then?
Sorry but this starts to sound a bit like "if we don't have it, the others can't also have it"?
jhsa wrote: The radio has a general model loaded so it can work with eepskye.
Which is IMO very stupid and the worst possible way you could go about it, and that's why it's not in OpenTX.
No Sir, it is not stupid.. If you would inform yourself and actually go read the project page, you would find out that you wouldn't even need the radio to connect your model to the computer and program it. You only need to program an arduino with some code Mike wrote. This arduino could also be used to decode the 16 SBUS channels from a frsky receiver and be used inside a model.

I only mentioned the radio because it seems to be the only way we could get telemetry back to eepskye, using the BT connection, unless we find another way of doing it using the arduino, which would be nice.. I guess this would be possible if using the oXs as we wouldn't need the receiver connected to send telemetry, The arduino sending receiving the channels could probably be also connected via BT instead of the FTDI adapter.
The way it's done involves a way too long chain of separate elements and requirements to be used that makes it:
- A pain to set up (I could literally configure a model from scratch on the radio itself and be done before you've connected and set up everything you need to start making it on the PC)
Wow, you're fast ;) But you don't know how fast I am :) I actually doubt you would be faster. You see, I am trained to do it, and you might not be. As you say, you never do it :)
With ersky9x, it takes less than 10 seconds to connect the radio to the PC via BT (something that openTX also doesn't have as far as I know). With the arduino it takes even less.
So, you wouldn't be much faster to begin with. I would then recover the 10 seconds by programming the model using eepskye :) But I don't do racing ;) :D

Anyway, as my father used to say, "There is no way you will do things very fast, and do them well" I took his advice seriously and I'm glad I did it, specially in electronics and when programming models. I always take my time.
I prefer to have all the options in front of me on a computer screen, and edit them there
- Too error-prone for the user due to the many things that have to be set up right before they can use it
Negative, again if you had checked or used the feature, you would know that you can program your model from scratch. I am talking about models, not the Radio Setup itself, even if you could also do it.
I have been using it and never had a problem.
- Too error-prone from a technical/development point of view (many separate, chained things in which a bug could cause problems, and that are not widely used enough to catch them)
- Complex to maintain i.e. lots of duplicate work e.g what Mike said for the telemetry handling
I think Mike managed it very well until now. I can't see why he shouldn't in future. I would let him decide that, unless you want to help him with the eepe/eepskye development of course ;) :)
It might be an interesting feature for some but should be done completely differently for a better ease of use so that people could actually consider using it, for easier maintenance and for better reliability/safety.
It is very reliable, it was very well tested, it is very safe, the arduino code even has failsafe, and you shouldn't have any props ON when programming a model anyway.

One thing I don't understand is why when someone comes with some idea for ersky9x, here or in RCG, Kilrah is always there trying to put it down?? :) That has been happening since quite a while.. For example when I announced my RF module soft power module project (for the Ar9x board, skyboard and 9XR-PRO radio), which actually WORKS VERY WELL. It was bashed like hell without any reason. Most radios (including all frsky radios) have it now. Only because it was for ersky9x and for the 9x radio with upgrade board? :o :o

I don't see anyone using ersky9x bashing the new features the opentx team adds to the firmware. I might comment if I would like it or not but I wouldn't try to convince the team to actually not implement it. Why should I, if i don't even use openTX and Companion? It is not my business :) :D
I could make some constructive suggestions at best.. But that is me of course :)

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Re: Sending SBUS Over BT and Receive Telemetry.

Post by Kilrah » Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:41 pm

jhsa wrote: One thing I don't understand is why when someone comes with some idea for ersky9x, here or in RCG, Kilrah is always there trying to put it down?? :)
I don't, I'm trying to make them better!
jhsa wrote: Why your sudden concern about this feature in ersky9x and eepskye then?
Sorry but this starts to sound a bit like "if we don't have it, the others can't also have it"?
No, you're the one who's insanely stubborn in insisting to twist it that way! When I see an idea that seems badly planned to me or that I think could be done better I open my mouth and just try to help improve it, I don't care whether it goes in OpenTX, ersky9x or any other project, or even whether I'm going to use it or not!
jhsa wrote: I might comment if I would like it or not but I wouldn't try to convince the team to actually not implement it.
You really don't understand. I'm not telling you anything should not be done, but that it could be done better. Thankfully we have people doing that with OpenTX too, it's very welcome, whether we take their input into account or not in the end varies but the important point is that it casues discussion and brings up things that may have been overlooked or jsut badly thought out...
jhsa wrote: I could make some constructive suggestions at best..
That's exactly what I'm doing. If I was in a competition as you seem to suggest I would keep my ideas to myself, but no I'm not like this and you'll have to continue to listen to me and my ideas. Feel free to ignore the advice if you don't want it or tell me how I'm wrong and I'll either accept it or argument further, but at least it's out there and maybe others will benefit from it.

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Re: Sending SBUS Over BT and Receive Telemetry.

Post by jhsa » Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:33 pm

No, you're the one who's insanely stubborn in insisting to twist it that way! When I see an idea that seems badly planned to me or that I think could be done better I open my mouth and just try to help improve it, I don't care whether it goes in OpenTX, ersky9x or any other project, or even whether I'm going to use it or not!
I know I'm a bit stubborn sometimes, but it isn't always a bad thing, and I am not twisting anything. We probably wouldn't have some features like voice if some of us weren't stubborn sometime ago, as everybody was bashing that idea (and other ideas) as well as far as I remember :D
Thank goodness Mike did like the idea, and now we have a great audio implementation in er9x and ersky9x.. :)
I don't think Mike planned the eepskye serial badly as you say, as it works very well whether you like it or not. So, no, it wasn't badly planned. If you think you can do it better, then do it..
Or at least give constructive ideas, I haven't read any yet. Only you saying that it shouldn't be done because this and that.. YOU DIDN'T EVEN TRY IT, or did you?
Eepskye already talks to the model through an arduino, or the radio itself. This thread is about also using eepskye to program the telemetry as it already does with the models. I believe it would be a good thing, you obviously don't. That is fine. it is not up to me or you to decide though :)

My reaction was due to the fact that when I post any new ideas for ersky9x, you normally are always there bashing them.
As I mentioned above, my RF Module soft power switch for example, what's wrong with it? It's working very well. If you can make it better, please do.. but as far as I know you didn't even support it on openTX, nor have you tried it with ersky9x. All modern open source radios use something similar. Only difference is that mine doesn't need to use any CPU pin. More pins that you can use for other stuff, like switches :) But this is off topic here..

And no, you are not making constructive suggestions, at least I haven't seen any. can you please point to your post where you did it?

Thank you

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Re: Sending SBUS Over BT and Receive Telemetry.

Post by MikeB » Sat Jul 09, 2016 6:11 pm

I'm not ruling anything out, but there will be quite a bit of work needed. At the moment I have enough other things I need to do without starting something else.
In addition, like some other things, thinking about an idea for a while helps to decide exactly what would be the most useful.

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Re: Sending SBUS Over BT and Receive Telemetry.

Post by jhsa » Sat Jul 09, 2016 6:33 pm

Thanks Mike..

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