Dual Sensor vario development

Development & General Chat for the superb openxvario project.

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Flaps 30
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Re: Dual Sensor vario development

Post by Flaps 30 »

RightRudder wrote:An airspeed indicator displays the difference between total pressure (measured at the pitot) and the local air pressure in the free stream (static pressure). The total pressure is the pressure at pressure coefficient Cp=+1. If you use an absolute type pressure sensor rather than a differential type then you are measuring total pressure directly, not airspeed for which you need a differential type sensor.
Yes sorry. My fault for using the word 'airspeed' rather than total pressure as created by forward motion. Of course you could get the true airpeed (height corrected) by using the air pressure from the vario (static pressure) sensor which is where we are with our standard vario. My explaination was simplified to try and demonstrate what I was thinking about.
RightRudder wrote:The TEK probe has a hole at the back in the suction area behind the probe and measures the pressure at Cp=-1. So all you need to do is hook up a pitot to an absolute type pressure sensor and subtract its output from the static pressure measured by the MS5611 in order to compensate the vario. If you scale the value by a gain factor so that you get a compensation value which ranges say between -0.8 and -1.2 you can adjust the compensation to how you like it..
Okay. So the TEK probe is giving us a lower or higher pressure depending upon the forward speed of the aircraft in addition to doing the calculations to give us the VS. Surely by using an MS5611 to measure the total pressure (due to forward speed) with the resultant output added in some proportion to the output of the static pressure sensor would give us the vertical speed.

We know that from a null point (different for each aircraft) we have a known forward speed (pressure) with a known sink rate. That in our case could be treated as the zero. From that we know that any decrease in forward pressure will result in a decreased output on both sensors due to the aircraft being in a climb, and the reverse is true with increased sensor outputs. . Now this is where I loose the plot. How to use those two numbers to give us a sensible output of climb and sink due to rising/sinking air.

Yes I like the differential sensor approach. That does beg the question if that worked. Why wasn't/isn't it used in full size mechanical aircraft instruments. Maybe it is as is the possibility that the electronic dual sensor or single differential sensor is already out there.. Think I found one.. It is an Aircotec XC-Trainer vario that you can add a speed sensor to that does the job. :)

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rainer
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Re: Dual Sensor vario development

Post by rainer »

RightRudder wrote: I've been using some HSC type honeywell sensors for another project which would be perfect for this. A bit expensive but you get 14 bits of resolution for a full scale sensitivity of 2.5mbar (that's about 40 times the sensitivity of the MS5611 !)
Its probably just my english, but i don't quite get it .... Can you explain that resolution a bit better to me? What is the minimum pressure difference that these sensors can measure? the MS5611 has a resolution of 0.012mBar with a 24Bit ADC and an accuracy of -1.5--+1.5mBar (at least that´s what the Datasheet is telling me)
So 40 times better would be way below that?
What´s the model number of those sensors?
Rainer.
build your own vario ==> https://github.com/openXsensor/openXsensor/wiki (Formerly https://code.google.com/p/openxsensor/ and https://code.google.com/p/openxvario/)
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Flaps 30
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Re: Dual Sensor vario development

Post by Flaps 30 »

*Brainwave* - Seeing what we are trying to do, is to reduce pilot induced thermals due to in the main, elevator inputs. Couldn't we use the elevator signal as an input instead of the forward pressure (speed) sensor?

It would even be possible to do all the calculations in the transmitter if it was done that way. Not that I'm suggesting that route, as it would limit the use of the vario too much.
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Rob Thomson
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Re: Dual Sensor vario development

Post by Rob Thomson »

It would need lots of tuning... Elevator gets used just to hold the model in the turn.

I still think the trial censor could be used to detect pitch change. And then act as a dampener to the filter.

I reality... Does anyone of this really matter? It works very well as is at the moment :-P

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Henning
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Re: AW: Dual Sensor vario development

Post by Henning »

Elevator won't work because its also used to keep height when spinning upwards in good thermals... It would require a complete 3D computation to estimate the planes orientation - IMHO far too complex for a small vario...

Perhaps a ACC Sensor could be used to roughly estimate the upward orientation of the fuselage nose?

Henning

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Flaps 30
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Re: Dual Sensor vario development

Post by Flaps 30 »

Rob Thomson wrote:It would need lots of tuning... Elevator gets used just to hold the model in the turn.
Yes I realised that when I woke up and gave it more thought.
Rob Thomson wrote:I reality... Does anyone of this really matter? It works very well as is at the moment :-P
Jury is out at the moment. Until we all get some airtime in with this, we will not know. Yes it does matter. It is called progress... Well some may not agree. Some may call it messing around.
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Re: Dual Sensor vario development

Post by jhsa »

As long as I can use it in my turbine powered glider (lots of wonderful noise) I don't care.. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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BubbaNel
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Re: Dual Sensor vario development

Post by BubbaNel »

Hi,

based on what I've been reading, I designed a dual sensor board.
The schematic is attached.
The board is sized to fit along the side of the D8R-II Plus receiver and plug into the 3 3-pin ports.
I know many of you would like larger SMT parts, but to fit it into this board size I had to use 0805 parts.

Please let me know what you think.

Thanks,
- Bob -
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Rob Thomson
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Re: Dual Sensor vario development

Post by Rob Thomson »

All good from my point of view... Only question / issue I would raise is ease of build for end users.

IMHO what makes the Openxvario so good.. Is anyone can build one. Just 7 wires to solder!

Can you circuit be applied to an arduino board and platform? (regardless of size)

Rob

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BubbaNel
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Re: Dual Sensor vario development

Post by BubbaNel »

I actually started with the schematic/design of the Arduino Pro-Mini and just added the the two MS5611 sensors and their support components.

My design then is actually an Arduino board. The Atmel ISP connector is for loading the Arduino bootloaded and the FTDI connector if for loading the .ino

I've now got pricing for the MS5611-01BA03 chip at $10.88 USD for qty=1-9

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Re: Dual Sensor vario development

Post by rainer »

Hi Bob,
Thanks for your work! looks great.
some thoughts about it:
1. placing it on side of the D8R-II would be nice for a single sensor version, but if we want a dual sensor version i don'think this would be a good idea as we would need additional mechanical parts to attach a pressure tube to at least one of the two MS5611 sensors. HAving this mechanical part on side of the D8R-II would'nt be a good idea. unless we all plan to move to 3-5m gliders ;-)
For a one sensor board this might be a nice thing.
2. due to the small size of the openXvario a lot of people will target the smaller D4R-II receivers, so i assume we would either need 2 seperate boards or one that is suitable for both boards.
3. it'good that you have the optional voltage dividers for AN1/2 planned in! probably one of them would be sufficient in most use cases.
4. if you´ve got enough space left on the board... please reserve some of it for additional connectors to optionally connect a second/3rd ppm signal. thiese could be used to remote control a total of 3 values via the 3 pots on our transmitter. this is mainly for the development phase to adjust various parameters of our algorythm that still has to be build. ( @flaps30: no comment on this one please :D )
5. I want an led on pinD13 :D it´s an arduino after all...
Maybe it would be better to do the layout as one small boards instead of directly hooking it up to the side of one specific modell of receiver.

Rainer.
build your own vario ==> https://github.com/openXsensor/openXsensor/wiki (Formerly https://code.google.com/p/openxsensor/ and https://code.google.com/p/openxvario/)
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Kilrah
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Re: Dual Sensor vario development

Post by Kilrah »

Did you consider the fact that placing ultra high sensitivity sensors like these right on an RF transmitter might cause trouble?

The BMP085 used in the frsky alti sensor needs to be put a good 20-30cm away from the receiver (which is also a transmitter) to get a stable reading.
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Rob Thomson
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Re: Dual Sensor vario development

Post by Rob Thomson »

rainer wrote: Maybe it would be better to do the layout as one small boards instead of directly hooking it up to the side of one specific modell of receiver.
+1.

Most of my gliders are really tight installs. I dont think I could actually get the unit next to the RX if I tried.

Rob
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Re: Dual Sensor vario development

Post by RightRudder »

rainer wrote:
RightRudder wrote: I've been using some HSC type honeywell sensors for another project which would be perfect for this. A bit expensive but you get 14 bits of resolution for a full scale sensitivity of 2.5mbar (that's about 40 times the sensitivity of the MS5611 !)
Its probably just my english, but i don't quite get it .... Can you explain that resolution a bit better to me? What is the minimum pressure difference that these sensors can measure? the MS5611 has a resolution of 0.012mBar with a 24Bit ADC and an accuracy of -1.5--+1.5mBar (at least that´s what the Datasheet is telling me)
So 40 times better would be way below that?
What´s the model number of those sensors?
Rainer.
I have some different ones. They are HSC series made by Honeywell. They have nice little hose connections on them. The most sensitive is HSC-D-RR-D-001ND-2-A-5. The full scale pressure is 2.5mB and it has 14 bits resolution so 1lsb is 0.00015mB. There is noise of several lsb of course and I would say useable resolution is more like 0.001mB
It is much too sensitive for an altimeter. But they can tell you if you stop breathing while you are sleeping! :mrgreen: They have of course less sensitive ones. They are a little expensive!
Joe

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