sky9x rev. B1 power issue

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MikeB
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Re: sky9x rev. B1 power issue

Post by MikeB » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:31 pm

I meant do you get a 10 second delay if you enter the bootloader with the TRN switch ON, so getting the USB text on the display and (ROM based) SAM-BA bootloader in the processor executing?

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Re: sky9x rev. B1 power issue

Post by capitaineflam25 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:14 am

With TRN switch maintained :
https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=2alwEjZMl5Q

Without :
https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=3YZPzniD0o8

I discover something : if the radio is plugged many seconds before to the USB without switching it up, then the startup is much faster : 4 seconds for the USB start.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UV_xF_YrQ_s

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Re: sky9x rev. B1 power issue

Post by MikeB » Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:35 pm

The "USB" startup doesn't use the PLL, so that is not the problem.
Things are pointing towards the 3.3V regulator. This is a linear regulator. There is a single, large capacitor on the input side (C4), and 10 large capacitors on the output side across the board.
When you plug in the USB cable, the 5V goes, via a diode, to the input of the regulator, so it is a bit like switching on, which is why the startup when you do switch on is quicker.
Possibly the regulator itself is bad, not soldered in well, or something is taking a lot of current preventing the regulator from working. The regulator is the large one with the heatsink.
A couple of tests:
1. Get the radio to power on normally, then press UP LONG to get to the Battery display. How much current is shown as being used? A very high value could indicate something drawing too much from the 3.3V regulator.
2. Monitor the 3.3V voltage when you power on and see if it comes up to 3.3V immediately, or takes time (10 seconds!) to do so.
J32 pin 1 is 3.3V and pin 6 is ground.
J20 pin 4 is 3.3V and pin 3 is ground.
J11 pin 1 is 3.3V and pin 4 is ground.

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Re: sky9x rev. B1 power issue

Post by SkyNorth » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:27 pm

Hi,

The middle leg of the 3.3V regulator has to be soldered to pin2 AND the tab on the PCB pattern.
It couldn't hurt to touch up these two spots with a soldering iron....
Also if the regulator / heatsink has been handled to much , you could have a hairline crack were the trace and pad meet.
so you might have to touch up the other two pins as well.

-Brent

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Re: sky9x rev. B1 power issue

Post by jhsa » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:50 pm

But would that explain the radio starting every second power ON and / or the radio starting only after 10 seconds? I find it a bit weird. Unless the regulator itself is damaged, or there is something drawing too much current as Mike also suggested..

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Re: sky9x rev. B1 power issue

Post by bob195558 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:57 pm

jhsa wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:50 pm
But would that explain the radio starting every second power ON ?
João
Could (radio starting every second power ON) be because, the caps are partly charged and so powering on fast ? :?:
Sky9x rev. B1 Board.jpg
Sky9x rev. B1 Board

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Last edited by bob195558 on Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: sky9x rev. B1 power issue

Post by capitaineflam25 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:04 pm

@MikeB
ersky9x shows 210Ma of current
The 3.3 pins are mesured at 0.40V when the switch is ON and the radio doesn't bootup, 4.30V when i have managed to boot it up (by switching it OFF and ON again)

@SkyNorth
Thanks a lot for your advices.
I never manipulated the regulator/heatsink : it still seams glued to the PCB with the original hotglue.
I will melt the legs of the regulator tomorrow and tells you if it is better.

Regards

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Re: sky9x rev. B1 power issue

Post by jhsa » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:19 pm

capitaineflam25 wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:04 pm
@MikeB
ersky9x shows 210Ma of current
This looks quite high?? Is this with a RF module installed? or without the RF module?
The 3.3 pins are mesured at 0.40V when the switch is ON and the radio doesn't bootup, 4.30V when i have managed to boot it up (by switching it OFF and ON again)
Are you reading 4.30V where it should read 3.3V?? Can you please confirm that as this is quite a bit too high?? Or did you just make a mistake while typing?

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Re: sky9x rev. B1 power issue

Post by capitaineflam25 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:48 pm

210 mA with my FrSky DJT module installed.

You read well ;) that was a solid 4.30V
Before writing this new message i did the test once more : now i read 4.02V (My voltmeter is accurate)

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Re: sky9x rev. B1 power issue

Post by jhsa » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:52 pm

That is a bit too much, it should read about 3.3V, that is nearly 1 volt too much. I think you will have to replace that 3.3V regulator..
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Re: sky9x rev. B1 power issue

Post by capitaineflam25 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:05 pm

jhsa wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:52 pm
That is a bit too much, it should read about 3.3V, that is nearly 1 volt too much. I think you will have to replace that 3.3V regulator..
Thanks.
Do you know where i the BOM of the sky9x board is available somewhere so i can look for the regulator reference ?

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Re: sky9x rev. B1 power issue

Post by bob195558 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:05 pm

Just to help me understand, How does the higher 4.2 volts cause a slower power up ? :?:
I would think it would cause a faster powering up.

Bob B.
Last edited by bob195558 on Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: sky9x rev. B1 power issue

Post by jhsa » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:22 pm

capitaineflam25 wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:04 pm

The 3.3 pins are mesured at 0.40V when the switch is ON and the radio doesn't bootup
I am also worried about this..
Does the regulator get quite hot when this happens?

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Re: sky9x rev. B1 power issue

Post by MikeB » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:04 pm

The regulator is a AP1117T33L-U (TO220 package), at least that is what I got and fitted to my early board that had a surface mount part originally.

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Re: sky9x rev. B1 power issue

Post by jhsa » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:09 pm

Mike, is this regulator getting battery voltage directly, or 5V from another regulator?

Thanks

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Re: sky9x rev. B1 power issue

Post by jhsa » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:35 pm

Something else, I use the AMS1117 in some of my projects, which is basically the same regulator but in a different package (SOT-223), and there are a couple things I have learnt about it.
One of them is that it does not like its output shorted. In my case this did put battery voltage on its output.
It seems that the regulator has a diode between the output and the input, and when we short the output, there is a very good chance that this diode will die and short itself, allowing the input voltage to be present at its output. This could probably explain why the OP is seeing a higher voltage at the output, even if not battery voltage.

Another question that just came to my mind is, could a bad connection (cold solder) on the regulator's ground pin, increasing the resistance between the pin and board, cause the output to go higher than it should?

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Re: sky9x rev. B1 power issue

Post by bob195558 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:05 am

Found some info here: (viewtopic.php?f=7&t=545&hilit=sky9x+rev.+B1).
Sky9x rev B1 board_b.jpg
Sky9x rev B1 board
TO220 style 3.3V regulator: (viewtopic.php?f=7&t=545&hilit=sky9x+rev ... =360#p8503)
and (viewtopic.php?f=7&t=545&hilit=sky9x+rev ... =480#p9992).
XRAY-SKY9x rev B1.jpg
Cool Xray Picture
Last edited by bob195558 on Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: sky9x rev. B1 power issue

Post by capitaineflam25 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:51 am

jhsa wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:22 pm
Does the regulator get quite hot when this happens?
I did the test :
i leaved the radio in bad "powered up" state for about 3 minutes (module has beeped, screen stays blank, and 3.3 pin are measured at 0.40V), but the heatsink of the regulator stays cold.

Once managed to boot up (On/Off cycle), i see 4.05V on the 3.3 pin, the heatsink gets hotter, maybe 25/30°C ? i can feel the heat with my finger but i'm far for burning myself.

I'd like to change the regulator, it's cheap and i should handle the operation, so even if it is not that, i have nothing to lose.

The AP1117T33L seems obsolete, and i have difficulties to find it.

I can have this LD1117 on eBay (It is packaged in T0220, rated for up to 15V, and delivers 800mA)

It's not 1A but it may be enough ?

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Re: sky9x rev. B1 power issue

Post by MikeB » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:34 am

Yes, that device should be OK. I checked the pinout matches and 800mA is more than enough.
I'd advise not powering on th radio anymore until you have a replacement regulator in place as 4V (or more) could damage the processor and/or the SD card.

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Re: sky9x rev. B1 power issue

Post by capitaineflam25 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:18 pm

I have received the new 3.3 regulator and replaced it on the board.

Unfortunately, the problem remains.
With this new regulator i read 4.50v on the 3.3 pins.
It maybe a bit more than with the previous one.

The behaviour of the radio startup has not changed :(

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Re: sky9x rev. B1 power issue

Post by jhsa » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:45 pm

That is weird.. Please avoid turning the radio ON. That voltage is really too high for the processor.
Unfortunately I don't have a schematic for that board. Perhaps Mike has it and can find something that might help.

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Re: sky9x rev. B1 power issue

Post by bob195558 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:25 pm

Found some Sky9x rev B1 board info here: (viewtopic.php?f=7&t=545&hilit=sky9x+rev.+B1).
RADIOS: ErSky9x on Taranis, ErSky9x on Sky9x, ErSky9x on 9Xtreme,
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Some help info here: (http://openrcforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=95&t=7182).
Bob B.

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Re: sky9x rev. B1 power issue

Post by MikeB » Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:59 pm

At the moment I can only think the regulator is going unstable and the voltage reading is actually wrong.
C4 and C7 should be 4.7 uF capacitors, C4 between the input and ground and C7 between the output and ground. If you have any capacitors you could add (4.7 uF to 10 uF) between the ground and the input and output of the regulator, this would be worth trying.
If you could also power the radio from a lower voltage (say 4 NiMh cells), this might help prevent the voltage going too high while testing.

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Re: sky9x rev. B1 power issue

Post by capitaineflam25 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:57 pm

Thanks a lot !

I'll buy 4.7uF capacitors for the test.

And i have a 2S LiFe battery that i will use for the test.

I tried the LiFe battery as is but the regulator output is still a 4.5V

Can you confirm me this is what i need to do :
capacitor_issue.png

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Re: sky9x rev. B1 power issue

Post by capitaineflam25 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:42 pm

MY FAULT :o The battery of my voltmeter is deplated and i didn’t realised that.

All my voltages measures were wrong, i’m sorry for this stupid mistake :?

I confirm that the output of the regulator is a stable 3.3V

The replacement of the regulator maybe useless but at least we know it is not faulty and there is no cold solder at its pins.

When the issue occurs, i still read 0.3V instead of 3.3V, and if i measure the voltage at the input of the regulator i read 0.10V.

Is there something faulty between the battery and the regulator input ? what is there between ? not only the power switch ?

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Re: sky9x rev. B1 power issue

Post by MikeB » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:50 pm

I nearly asked about your meter!
No need to try adding the capacitors. In passing your diagram is incorrect, both capacitors should connect to GND, one then to IN and the other to 3.3V.
I'll now need to think of something else to try.

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Re: sky9x rev. B1 power issue

Post by bob195558 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:36 pm

I do not know if this is any help,
but my Sky9x rev. B1 Board 9x radio has been resting for about a year
and when I powered it up last week it displayed very similar behavior that
capitaineflam25 describe about his Sky9x rev B1 board radio.

I felt the problem was with the Power Switch,
so I took it out and cleaned it with some QD Electronic Cleaner,
which fixed the problem.

Suggestion, you may want to look at your main power switch for the problem.

Bob B.
RADIOS: ErSky9x on Taranis, ErSky9x on Sky9x, ErSky9x on 9Xtreme,
Er9x-FrSky on 9x-Radio with Smartieparts upgrade Programmer Board and 9x-TelemetrEZ Board.
Some help info here: (http://openrcforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=95&t=7182).
Bob B.

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Re: sky9x rev. B1 power issue

Post by capitaineflam25 » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:17 am

MikeB wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:50 pm
I nearly asked about your meter!
It's my fault, i was confident about my meter and didn't realised my batteries where running out :(

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Re: sky9x rev. B1 power issue

Post by capitaineflam25 » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:19 am

bob195558 wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:36 pm
Suggestion, you may want to look at your main power switch for the problem.
Thank you.
I disassemble it and spray it with a similar product, but there is no change.
I don't know if it was the same for you, but when it doesn't work, my FrSky module beeps and the red light at the back is on, making me think that the switch is OK.
Last edited by capitaineflam25 on Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: sky9x rev. B1 power issue

Post by bob195558 » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:52 am

Hi capitaineflam25,
My symptoms were similar to your screen behaviors, but not the same, as was not able to boot up fully
and seemed to becoming stuck as not able to power up fully.
Bad connection of battery power to the Sky9x radio, as after cleaning the dirty Power Switch, it now powers up properly.
My 3S battery voltage was good, so was not a problem of to low of battery power.

I think, believe, the module in the back only powers up after the radio Sky9x board is fully powered up first (booted up).
Maybe could try tried powering up radio without the external module installed in the back to see what happens.

Bob B.
RADIOS: ErSky9x on Taranis, ErSky9x on Sky9x, ErSky9x on 9Xtreme,
Er9x-FrSky on 9x-Radio with Smartieparts upgrade Programmer Board and 9x-TelemetrEZ Board.
Some help info here: (http://openrcforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=95&t=7182).
Bob B.

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