Can this Full fledge FPV system be done with stock RF module

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kaos
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Can this Full fledge FPV system be done with stock RF module

Post by kaos »

OK, sorted out what I need for a full fledged OSD, joy stick FPV system.
My question is with this system, can it be done with stock RF module and Rx. It seems this system can reach 2KM. Does the stock RF module reach that far? or should I use the Frysky module? Any mod I need to do with the stock Tx? ie. 1 K trainer port mod.
2nd. I can't quite from reading the spec, this system can have all the data it mentioned: power monitoring, voltage..., altitude, speed....
I have a HK P51D 1200mm plane(http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... duct=17787) running on 3S to fit this system on. Plane is already in RTF condition programed with stock T9X (yet to be transferred to my er9x Tx). It is actually head heavy, it is quite well to have a FPV system behind the current CG to balance out. :)

OK here is all the FPV, OSD components I have searched out:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... duct=17166
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... tenna.html
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... duct=20671
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... duct=17507
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... duct=17169
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... duct=17170
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... duct=11442
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... _PAL_.html
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... duct=17165
560.98 total
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... 414X21.pdf
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... 209X12.jpg
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... 229X36.pdf

The extended range antenna needed for both Tx and Rx/goggle or just for the FPV Tx module?
It is quite an investment. I just want to be sure they will all work together and it will give all the flight data and range (2KM) I think it will give. Any suggestion, input is appreciated.
Last edited by kaos on Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Can this Full fledge FPV system be done with stock RF mo

Post by kaos »

OK, just found the ideal fly control stick/throttle and rudder paddle. But these are for PC flight simulator. Can it be moded to work with the RC Tx?

http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/compedals.html
http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/x65f.html

If the whole system can be integrated, this can be used on twin EDF jets or twin engine prop plane as well. :)
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Re: Can this Full fledge FPV system be done with stock RF mo

Post by Kilrah »

kaos wrote:My question is with this system, can it be done with stock RF module and Rx.
I've seen some comments stating the stock system was good up to around 2km - but I have no experience with it myself. Would be good to have confirmation from someone who actually uses it, or to do some ground tests yourself.
kaos wrote:Any mod I need to do with the stock Tx? ie. 1 K trainer port mod.
Nope, not on the RC side. What might be interesting to do is the same mod I did to power the goggles from the TX battery.
Looks OK, haven't read about practical experiences with it though, except from the reviews on HK which aren't that positive.
You could also get the full set in one: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... emote.html
That you can skip, a 12dBi omni won't do any good unless you fly at ground level.
Predators are OK even if the FOV is a bit narrow. As I said you can easily use the head tracker with the 9x, and even power them through it if you feel like.
I'm not a fan of ImmersionRC systems, especially as 200mW combos like this one have been found to offer better range at 1/3rd of the power (and thus reduced power consumption, with also potentially reduced impact on R/C range). But then you'd lose the convenience of the Predator's integrated RX.
Be prepared to replace the antennas if you want to get to 2km.
Just note the "Servos not included" ;)
Should just be good enough.
I think you'll be a bit on your own with this one, not very popular among FPV fliers. It should at least work with your 9x, but have a look at the manual to see if you understand something (I don't really!)
kaos wrote:OK, just found the ideal fly control stick/throttle and rudder paddle. But these are for PC flight simulator. Can it be moded to work with the RC Tx?

http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/compedals.html
http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/x65f.html
No idea, maybe that could work with the AEO box, but they don't actually say anything about the requirements on the joystick, or if it even works with another one than theirs.
kaos wrote:It is quite an investment. I just want to be sure they will all work together and it will give all the flight data and range (2KM) I think it will give. Any suggestion, input is appreciated.
I think you'd be better asking that on a forum that is dedicated to FPV, you'll have many more experiences (confusing ones too :D ).
There isn't a "one size fits all" solution in FPV, so it's indeed quite complicated.

I have my own solutions with experience to back them up, but your 2km requirement is out of my scope, so I can't really help more ;)
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Re: Can this Full fledge FPV system be done with stock RF mo

Post by kaos »

YOU have help a lot. :)
I did not find that OSD complete combo at HK. where did you find that one. I thought I have searched the entire site. that will save some bucks. ;)

Now this is what really intriguing to me: the joy stick http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... duct=17165
according to the manual, it is actually by Saitek or clone of it, it comes with a 1.5 system box, which is basically a USB connection, but works like a Tx without the RF module:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... 012X34.pdf
it can connect to 3 USB device and control it. When I read it, it appears to me you can put 2 or even 3 USB device, configure each to 8 ch.
This System 1.5 is made by Aero, they say they use joystick based on Saitek. It is reasonable to assume the Saiteck joy stick, paddle would work with the system 1.5 and to the Tx.

and Yes, I think I will make a cloverleaf Tx and Rx antenna for the FPV system. and use the Frysky module/Rx to reach 3KM range, as long as the FPV can reach that far.
Last edited by kaos on Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can this Full fledge FPV system be done with stock RF mo

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Here is the idea.
Using 2 of those system 1.5 box, one will connect to the joy stick from Saitek, the other will connect to the throttle and paddle. each box is connected to one of 2 T9X. both use Frysky RF module and Rx. that should give me 16 ch simultaneously to control just about any plane with twin jets or prop and with spares for fun goodies, ie, bump, lights, guns.... :mrgreen:
Unless, the er9x V2 comes out 1st with PXX working. :)

Frysky RF module can reach 2Km or more easy by other's report.
Just need to find out a 5.8 GHz FPV system with OSD can reach 2KM reliably. You can't see it, you can't fly it.
If this system works out, I consider this the ultimate RC experience, just like a real pilot flying. :)

With the help of the nerds around here, May be we can come up with a 'homing' program, since the GPS is part of the OSD system, if the plane is out of FPV range or lost, it can fly back on its own. :)

I have seen system like that on the web long time ago (the homing), but I think it cost about >1K or more. I gave up on that.

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Re: Can this Full fledge FPV system be done with stock RF mo

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kaos wrote:it can connect to 3 USB device and control it.
I'm not sure about that. From the horrible chinglish manual, it seems that while they used USB plugs, none of the plugs actually carry a real USB signal:
awful manual wrote:This system has four ports, from right to left: “A” port is special for digital head tracking gyro; “B” port for main transmitter; “C” port for the first deputy transmitter; “D” port for the second deputy transmitter. “C” and “D” can exchange.
To me, A can only be connected to their own head tracker (maybe?), and will communicate using some random proprietary digital protocol. B, C and D would be PPM inputs, which means the joystick would actually not be a real USB joystick, but it would have a custom processor inside that outputs a PPM signal. The "System 1.5" box would thus only be a PPM mixer, except (maybe?) for the head tracker. That would mean no other joystick could be used.
kaos wrote:Frysky RF module can reach 2Km or more easy by other's report.
Seems so, I've read about people reporting 4km without a single RSSI warning. However, only with modifications to the antennas. As stock, the only experience I have so far with purely stock stuff shows about 1.2km. Granted I had a 1.2GHz TX on board, which usually is no good at all in conjunction with a 2.4GHz RC RX. I'd say 2km would be just OK as stock with 5.8GHz video. I'll need to strap up my 200mW 5.8 TX on the same plane in one of my next tests.
kaos wrote:Just need to find out a 5.8 GHz FPV system with OSD can reach 2KM reliably. You can't see it, you can't fly it.
If this system works out, I consider this the ultimate RC experience, just like a real pilot flying. :)
Frankly, I don't think you need 2km to have the full experience. I probably never exceeded 500m in the following video :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xhI9q84ckk&hd=1

I myself rarely fly beyond 1km.
kaos wrote:I have seen system like that on the web long time ago (the homing), but I think it cost about >1K or more.
There are MANY <300$ OSDs that handle autonomous return to home nowadays. DragonOSD+, Eagletree OSD Pro, Rangevideo OSD are just a few. Woudl be interesting to handle that in the TX software indeed though!!! FrSky + GPS downlinked to radio, which calculates inputs and sends them up. But the major drawback is that many "emergency" cases are due to lost R/C link, in which case this solution is useless. Would stll be fun :)
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Re: Can this Full fledge FPV system be done with stock RF mo

Post by kaos »

But the major drawback is that many "emergency" cases are due to lost R/C link, in which case this solution is useless.
That is the point. the Tx has all the GPS data already, with loss of R/X link, while GPS still on board, the plane will head/fly back to the 'origin' place until the R/X link is reestablished. :)
This is where nerds are needed. ;)

Wow, nice flying. Are you Red Bull RC team? Imagine you are flying like that but with overhead goggle and life like joystick, throttle , paddle control. Then, You are really flying.;)

Wish I had the electronic knowledge, or I will hack these gizmo right away. Unfortunately, last time I looked into a circuit board and oscilloscope was 37 yrs ago. Never looked back again. :) Barely remember ohm's law. :mrgreen:
Last edited by kaos on Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can this Full fledge FPV system be done with stock RF mo

Post by Kilrah »

No, because with what you said (unless I understood wrong) the GPS data should get to the 9x, that would compute orders, then send them back to the plane. That won't work when the link is dead.
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Re: Can this Full fledge FPV system be done with stock RF mo

Post by kaos »

you understood correctly. that is one further step. True homing/fail safe capability. :) The data is there already. just need to use it. :)
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Re: Can this Full fledge FPV system be done with stock RF mo

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Yeah, but a failsafe activates when the radio link is lost. And in this case, as the data has to do the round trip between the plane and radio to be computed, it can't work when the link is lost. Which is why RTH is implemented in OSD's, that do all the work in the airplane itself. You can lose both the R/C and the video link, and the plane can still fly itself.
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Re: Can this Full fledge FPV system be done with stock RF mo

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For the sake of discussion. There has to be an onboard 'auto pilot' system as well, it will take over when link is lost and turning the plane back to 'home'. once within range of Tx/FPV system again, you can take over the control again. Who says it is easy. ;)

I think I am going to go head order the joystick with the system 1.5 , at least I got a joy stick can fly with (unfortunately Aero does not have a throttle, paddle gear yet). Once I get it. I may open it up and see if the joy stick is just a USB device while the System 1.5 is actually doing the conversion to PPM. If that is the case, wola, we have a plan. ;)
I do suspect the system 1.5 is doing the job. It is easier for them to do the conversion in the box from the point of manufacturing, instead of opening up the Saitek joy stick and put a chip in there to do conversion. (Actually I think Aero may just copied the Saitek joy stick and make them out of cheap material - compared to the Saitek joy stick) I will open it up and get a few pic of the circuit board for you /anyone to exam (I still remember how to unscrew a couple screws and put them back ;)).
If it ever gets here. It always takes forever for my order from Hk to get to me. :-S
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Re: Can this Full fledge FPV system be done with stock RF mo

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HK is crazy as always. the price for the complete set of OSD as you posted is 10+ dollars more than you buy them individually as I posted. Found a couple incidence like this before. and you cannot preorder this complete set. :-S
I will go ahead order the available OSD components (GPS is BK but can be preordered) and the joy stick. put those few items that are BK as preorder and pray they will stock them within 30 days. :-S
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Re: Can this Full fledge FPV system be done with stock RF mo

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kaos wrote:the price for the complete set of OSD as you posted is 10+ dollars more than you buy them individually as I posted.
Yeah, but it also adds the remote and all sensors.
kaos wrote:and you cannot preorder this complete set. :-S
Too bad, it was in stock when I posted the link this morning :)

I ordered my 2nd 9X and a couple of things earlier today using the "trick" to purchase backordered items. Will see how it goes...
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Re: Can this Full fledge FPV system be done with stock RF mo

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kaos wrote:

Imagine you are flying like that but with overhead goggle and life like joystick, throttle , paddle control. Then, You are really flying.;)
Well, flying for me is when I go to the airfield, sit my backside on my (rented :mrgreen: ) plane, smell the petrol, and FEEL the airplane.. nothing can beat that.. :mrgreen: ;)
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Re: Can this Full fledge FPV system be done with stock RF mo

Post by Kilrah »

I'm flying on a Pilatus PC-6 or AS350 helicopter more or less at least once a week (as a pax though) during the nice season :mrgreen:

FPV has the huge advantage of not requiring paperwork, ratings, yearly checks, NOTAMs, TFRs, not needing to depend on anybody... as well as keeping you safe when doing the fun stuff (flying between trees...) :mrgreen:
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Re: Can this Full fledge FPV system be done with stock RF mo

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True.. talking about that, we must be very carefull with this FPV thing.. there's a dicussion/argument going on at the moment at the rcg multiwii thread because a certain guy is flying quite dangerously above urban areas. one of his last videos shows him flying over a couple of busy roads and groups of people.. People in the thread are a bit upset because this lack of resposability can never be good for our hobby..

everything started with the video on this page.. but he has been doing similar since a long time and the folks in the thread already asked him to at least not post such videos

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthre ... &page=1701

WE MUST NOT FLY OVER PEOPLE OR PROPERTIES.. iT'S DANGEROUS
Just though I'd share this
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Re: Can this Full fledge FPV system be done with stock RF mo

Post by MikeB »

Agreed, I believe, in the UK, the BMFA specifies (for insurance to be valid) anyone doing FPV should be a 'student' on a buddy box, and the actual main pilot should be the master. So the FPV pilot should never fly outside visual range, and the master should always be able to take over control.

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Re: Can this Full fledge FPV system be done with stock RF mo

Post by Kilrah »

There have always been some of these videos, and they've always sparked the same debates.
MikeB wrote:Agreed, I believe, in the UK, the BMFA specifies (for insurance to be valid) anyone doing FPV should be a 'student' on a buddy box, and the actual main pilot should be the master.
Which is probably the most ridiculous regulation that could apply to FPV. In 8 years of FPV, of the few crashes I've had a secondary pilot would never have been able to help. If you need to put a limit for insurance reasons and have people stay within a certain distance, then regulate that distance. Within it? Covered. Outside of it? It's your problem and face the risks. Requiring a 2nd useless pilot is plain stupid.

In the end, all it takes is a bit of personal sense of responsibility.
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Re: Can this Full fledge FPV system be done with stock RF mo

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You know what they'll do if they regulate the distance, don't you?? they will make us fly within the limits of the club's field. that's what I think they would do.. and also the cameras.. when they realize that people might use this aircraft to spy on other people or other people's property..
I think I've read somewhere that the British (I think) Police has been using multirotors and FPV to capture criminals successefully.. They had to ground their gear because the police was doing it ilegally. They have no license for it or something like that.. Mike, you live there, maybe you've read something about it??
Found something about it.. ;)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... drone.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... g-law.html
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Re: Can this Full fledge FPV system be done with stock RF mo

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Kilrah wrote: Yeah, but it also adds the remote and all sensors.
so are the 4 items purchase separately. :)
kaos wrote: Too bad, it was in stock when I posted the link this morning :)
Stole my idea and took the last one. :evil: ;)
I ordered my 2nd 9X and a couple of things earlier today using the "trick" to purchase backordered items. Will see how it goes...
Never worked for me, I had an order waited for 1 month, finally c/x and replaced an item in stock to have the entire order shipped out.
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Re: Can this Full fledge FPV system be done with stock RF mo

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I quit flying just before getting my FAA license under the advice of my old man who has logged more than 40K hrs before retiring as a heli pilot. This is what he told me: " those little plane/heli is just too dangerous. Especially for wkend pilots. you don't know how to handle emergency/unexpected situation. Yep, I came from pilot family. Saw quite a few friends growing up together lost their dad who were my dad's flight academy classmates. I was one time got every thing lined up including stunt pilot lesson too. But after the initial course flying a 20 yrs old Cessna. I told to myself , hmmm, not worth to crash in a tin can. :) Even got the self built aerobatic craft lined up.
Just be careful guys flying the tin can. :) AC350 is probably OK. :)

Since I had memory, my dad had 4 crash landing, one near crash but he got away with it. One of the crash landing is the jet engine sucked in a tiny little sparrow ruined the turbine, crash landed in a muddy field, fortunately.

That's how I got interested in FPV set up. Flying without risk. :mrgreen:

AS for the people flying over crowded area, that is definitely not a good practice. BUT, those 'tin can' are over our heads all the time. When they come down, it is worse. ;) FPV is actually safer, cause you can see what is underneath your plane so you can avoid people below. Flying a little RC plane / heli at some distance in a wide open field is safe, but anything on the ground hinder your view on the horizon, your plane may be over someone's head while not knowing it.
We just need to regulate ourselves for safe flying. Really don't need more government regulation. ;)
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Re: Can this Full fledge FPV system be done with stock RF mo

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kaos wrote:
I ordered my 2nd 9X and a couple of things earlier today using the "trick" to purchase backordered items. Will see how it goes...
Never worked for me, I had an order waited for 1 month, finally c/x and replaced an item in stock to have the entire order shipped out.
Well, I just received a stock arrival notification, and... mine is now "Reserved" :D
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Re: Can this Full fledge FPV system be done with stock RF mo

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I wish I was that lucky Kaos.. I wish I came from a pilot family ;) :) I had a emergency landing myself, and seen a friend crashing and die.. It does make you think.. But at the end of the day it's what we love to do and we get over it.. I tried FPV myself with a friend's twinstar and I did enjoy it.. But it's getting difficult to do it here, at least in my club. And I don't want to do it anywhere else because of the insurance.. that's why I'd like to find some small foamie for it..
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Re: Can this Full fledge FPV system be done with stock RF mo

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jhsa wrote:You know what they'll do if they regulate the distance, don't you?? they will make us fly within the limits of the club's field.
No, simply limit to "within visual range", which is essentially what's in place now, but without the need for a 2nd pilot.

Anyway, in many places (most / all of Europe), there simply isn't any legal video transmission system that is lightweight and affordable enough to go beyond about 1km, maybe 2 if you use big fat RX antennas. So anyone flying beyond that, even if they were doing so legally or in a regulational "void" from the aviation side of things, they'd be liable for operating non-compliant radio equipment and their insurance would use that to screw them. In some countries (France) you simply aren't allowed to transmit video from an aircraft in the first place (old, obsolete, but still valid law from the '60s).
In the USA this is not a problem, but for pretty much any of the video transmission systems we have you need to have a radioamateur license, which the very vast majority of FPV fliers of course didn't do the effort of getting.
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Re: Can this Full fledge FPV system be done with stock RF mo

Post by jhsa »

Here in Germany the legal power is 25mW I think.. Maybe I could get 100 meters on that power?? :D
And You can fly only in line of sight because otherwise would not make sense to have a spotter.. They will never say that the spotter is not needed because when you take your goggles off you might not find the aircraft..
It's not easy, and will not get easier for us unfortunately. specially if people keep doing S**t..

Many people are flying in places where the insurance will not cover.. let's hope that no accidents happen otherwise the hobby will suffer..
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Re: Can this Full fledge FPV system be done with stock RF mo

Post by Kilrah »

No, 1km is fine on 2.4GHz/10mW or 5.8GHz/25mW :)
They will never say that the spotter is not needed because when you take your goggles off you might not find the aircraft..
So, if you lose video link, you'll crash. It's no different from the "If you lose R/C, you crash" that's happened for 40 years without anybody complaining about it...
I've seen 10kg models lose R/C and cause damage. Someone's even been killed by one 2-3 years ago in the region. Video link doesn't make it any worse. At the club, there would be more than one R/C related crash every day. I probably only had 2 crashes in 8 years of FPV that could be attributed to the video link... so there's no more reason (much less actually...) to require a 2nd pilot for FPV than to require a 2nd pilot with a second redundant TX for normal flying in case the pilot got lost or lost R/C, yet nobody would even consider that.
And that's not even counting that the vast majority of crashes are due to pilot error anyway, even if they'll often rather blame the radio - it becomes harder now with 2.4 :twisted:
jhsa wrote:It's not easy, and will not get easier for us unfortunately. specially if people keep doing S**t..
Many people are flying in places where the insurance will not cover..
Forunately for now the authorities are being sensible. Those guys (particularly one too well-known team...) doing stupid stuff have been held personally responsible, and received letters from the authotities of several countries at home, without the whole community being put to blame. It's already something.
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jhsa
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Re: Can this Full fledge FPV system be done with stock RF mo

Post by jhsa »

Well, let's hope you're right. In my club FPV is really limited already.. :(
My er9x/Ersky9x/eepskye Video Tutorials
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5uJhoD7sAKidZmkhMpYpp_qcuIqJXhb9

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kaos
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Re: Can this Full fledge FPV system be done with stock RF mo

Post by kaos »

Kilrah wrote:No, 1km is fine on 2.4GHz/10mW or 5.8GHz/25mW :)
then, the 200 mW FPV TX/Rx you are talking about should be good for 2Km then?
I went through the list all night (while you are talking about flying in a tin can :) ), i think I am going to abandon the fatshark goggle. The reason I list that 600mw Tx, is because Fatshark goggle use 5xx5 ch, but the 200 mW uses 5xx0 ch. I found another google which was reviewed better than Fatshark but use 5xx5 ch. With that goggle I can use the 200mW Tx/Rx. :)
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... duct=12175
It also has head tracking gyro in it. but you are right about the system 1.5, it can only use the 1500 digital head tracking gyro made by Aeo not the other gyros.

I am going to find if there is any 'gaming' google to use with the 200 mW Rx, save the extra cost (for built in head track gyro) for a 1500 digital gyro. I think I am close to have a working system. ;)
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kaos
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Re: Can this Full fledge FPV system be done with stock RF mo

Post by kaos »

Ha, found the goggle. better. multifunction too besides flying FPV.
http://www.zetronix.com/80%22-High-Reso ... _info.html

and Hk does sell a ST-1 joy stick which includes the x-1500 gyro. http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... duct=20096
and it comes with the x-1500 gyro :) and this has 4 proportional channel instead of 3 as in the BT-1

Kilrah, take a good look at the pic, it says Saitek on the base of the stick (Saitek at top, Cyborg at bottom, Cyborg is one Saitek flystick model). I think it sounds more and more the system 1.5 box is a converter for USB signal to PPM signal, that is why it has to be used with the Aeo x-1500 'digital' gyro not other head tracking gyro.
Last edited by kaos on Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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kaos
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Re: Can this Full fledge FPV system be done with stock RF mo

Post by kaos »

Does any one know these two antenna actually increase the range of Frysky Tx?
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... duct=16670
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... duct=20108

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