Gvars... Wassat!!!

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Flaps 30
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Gvars... Wassat!!!

Post by Flaps 30 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:21 am

Yes here we are. I know that everyone on this site know all about GVARS and how to use it/them, and they (you) cannot understand why people like me would even consider using Er9x or Open9x without using all the GVARS the system will allow.

I know Rob is amazed that another glider guider would even consider flying without having GVARS in place.

So guys. Let's see your GVARS (no smut please) files or some reason why your flying would never be the same without at least two GVARS being programmed.

I won't go off topic bringing up the 'secret' stuff concerning difference stuff related to Open9x. Well.. Not yet anyway as I know that everyone knows about that stuff.

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Re: Gvars... Wassat!!!

Post by jhsa » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:03 am

I used GVARS (together with custom switches) to increment / decrement / reset to start voice files...
These are features that are still not released but you can try them if you can compile the test unreleased firmware..
Basically you assign a number to GV1 and that will be your start file number. The first one to be played. then you assign custom functions to increment or decrement that number. This is achieved with a switch for example.. in my case, as the 3pos sw was already being used for the plaps, I used a pot and divided it in 3 positions with the help of some custom switches..
So, what I have is:
First of all go to the Flight Phases screen and in FP0 set the values for GV1 and GV2

GV1 263 (this value will change with increment or decrement)
GV2 263

Custom switches:

CS1 v1<x P3 -50
CS2 AND CS1 TRN (increment using CS2, Pot to the left + TRN)
CS3 v1<x P3 50 (reset using !CS3, Pot to the right.)
CS4 AND TRN !CS1 3 (decrement using CS4, Pot at centre + TRN)

This adds 3 positions to a pot and also combines it with the trainer switch as a trigger to the voice and inc/dec..

Custom Functions:

TRN Play Track GV1 (This will play the track with the same file number as the GVAR value)
CS2 Adj GV1 +1 (When CS2 is on, pot to the left, AND TRN sw on, GV1 will increment by one every time we flick the sw)
!CS3 Adj GV1 GV2 (pot to the right. GV1 will be reset to the same value as GV2. in this case is also 263 and it will start playing the files from the beginning.)
CS4 Adj GV1 -1 (Pot at centre. When flicking TRN sw it will decrease the value of GV1 and play it)

As I said before some of this features will be available on the next release of open9x. I hope this helps a little to understand the GVARS. I'm trying to understand it myself. Thanks to Kilrah for bearing with me and helping me to understand what I just wrote..

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Re: Gvars... Wassat!!!

Post by Flaps 30 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:19 am

Hmm... OKay... Yes I see all of that João. I have no doubt that it makes sense to you and it (might) make flying just that more enjoyable. For me I was lost after you wrote "I used GVARS (together with custom switches)". My thoughts went to why you would want to do that? When would I be in a situation that nothing else would do?

I know it probably isn't easy to explain. Hence why I mentioned posting files. Obviously if you are using a yet unreleased package that you are building files on. They will be of no use to most people.

So it's back to the top.. Why would anyone need GVARS? What do they so that other methods will not do? How do they make life better for the pilot without overloading the said pilot?

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Re: Gvars... Wassat!!!

Post by jhsa » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:43 am

this was just an example. Actually I do want to use something like this to help me training aerobatics. As I said before, I didn't have a 3 position switch available, so with the help of a few custom switches I simulated a 3 position switch with a pot..
with the increment and decrement feature one could for example simulate a rotary switch..
I'm sure there are many more uses for it but as I said I'm also just discovering GVARS.. In fact I'm discovering open9x and trying not to let it drive me nuts :D

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Re: Gvars... Wassat!!!

Post by G550Ted » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:11 am

Flaps 30 wrote:Hmm... OKay... Yes I see all of that João. I have no doubt that it makes sense to you and it (might) make flying just that more enjoyable. For me I was lost after you wrote "I used GVARS (together with custom switches)". My thoughts went to why you would want to do that? When would I be in a situation that nothing else would do?

I know it probably isn't easy to explain. Hence why I mentioned posting files. Obviously if you are using a yet unreleased package that you are building files on. They will be of no use to most people.

So it's back to the top.. Why would anyone need GVARS? What do they so that other methods will not do? How do they make life better for the pilot without overloading the said pilot?
Really very simple, Flaps.

All one needs to do is build a table of contingencies activated by any number of custom switches that, when multiplied by the array of the 5 available GVARs (hopefully soon to be expanded to 49), and then divided by the sqrt of 13 will result in... in... Oh hell, I have no idea either! :?

Like you, I am awaiting an understanding of a common and practical application of these things.

Ted


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Re: Gvars... Wassat!!!

Post by Rob Thomson » Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:01 am

A simple use of gvars is just in the overall simplification of your mixes.

Take for example in open9x:

Your gvars value cam be different in each flight phase.

So... In flight phase one, you want your aileron differential to be 40%. In flight phase 2 it should be set at 10%.

So... One mix, 1 gvar. Done.

Result is a saving of mixes being used :mrgreen:

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Re: Gvars... Wassat!!!

Post by MikeB » Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:54 am

On er9x, here is what they do.
------------------------------
Description of GVARS in er9x, 04 Mar 2013

There are 5 Global VARiableS (GVARS) available. They may be configured on the
GVAR menu.

Each GVAR may be a constant, input as ---, or be controlled.
Possible control inputs are:
Rtm Rudder TriM
Etm Elevator TriM
Ttm Throttle TriM
Atm Aileron TriM
REN Rotary ENcoder
RUD RUDder stick
ELE ELEvator stick
THR THRottle stick
AIL AILeronstick
P1 Pot P1
P2 Pot P2
P3 Pot P3

Each GVAR has a value between -125 and +125, and is constrained to this
range. In certain cases the use is restricted to -100 to +100.

GVARS may be used in a number of places.

1. The source of a mix.
The value of the mix (-125 to +125) is scaled to provide a -100 to +100 input to a mix. One use of this is to obtain a trim control as the source of a mix. On many electric models and gliders the throttle trim in particular is not used. It may be disabled from being included in the mix of the stick, and is then available for use as the input to a GVAR, and then that GVAR may be used as the source of a mix.

2. Weight and offset of a mix.
The weight and offset values for a mix may be set to use a GVAR. This allows the values of these to be adjusted in flight.

3. EXPO and Dual Rate.
The expo and dual rate values may be set to use a GVAR. This allows the values of these to be adjusted in flight.

4. Voice source.
GVARS are in the list of items that may be used by voice messages.
------------------------
Why would you want them? The ability to adjust certain values 'in flight', such as dual rate.
The ability to use a trim control as a mix source.
Voice feedback of a pot/trim/rotary encoder position e.g. if you use a pot to control your flaps, the pot position can be announced so you know your flap setting ("Flaps 30" :mrgreen: [sorry, couldn't resist it]).

I will be extending where they may be used, and probably what may be used as inputs, e.g. a channel output.

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Re: Gvars... Wassat!!!

Post by jhsa » Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:06 pm

MikeB wrote:esist it]).

I will be extending where they may be used, and probably what may be used as inputs, e.g. a channel output.

Mike.
Yes please ;) :D

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Re: Gvars... Wassat!!!

Post by Flaps 30 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:38 pm

MikeB wrote:Voice feedback of a pot/trim/rotary encoder position e.g. if you use a pot to control your flaps, the pot position can be announced so you know your flap setting ("Flaps 30" :mrgreen: [sorry, couldn't resist it]).
That's okay MIke. :)

Okay.. So what have we really got here? For the moment let me call the GVAR thingy something else.. How about sub mixer?

The way I see it, we have a number of sub mixers that are switch selectable. The inputs to the sub mixers can access areas that normal mixers cannot, along with the normal sources. The output of the sub mixer can be used to change parameters like expo and rate/weights of channels along with a list of other things (you tell me) that it can feed into/alter.

I take it that the sub mixer is switch selectable and the switches can be physical ones or software switches.

Perhaps some form of block diagram/flow chart would make more sense of it..

So far I do feel that my flying abilities along with model setup/trimming are of such a high standard that I don't need too much help to fly. But it is nice to know of what is available and what can be done for the armchair pilots and others. :P
Last edited by Flaps 30 on Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Gvars... Wassat!!!

Post by Rob Thomson » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:40 pm

Well... Not really a mixer. More a global variable, that can be used within mixes.

But I get why you would see it as a sub mixer :-)

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Re: Gvars... Wassat!!!

Post by Flaps 30 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:49 pm

Okay. So we have this global variable mixer that can take in sources like, sticks, pots; switches, trims, mix outputs and whatever. The output can be used to directly change weights, expo's, rates of any channel I take it that along with what I have covered that it/they can trigger voice files? timers?

Ohh... Forgot... And this global variable mixer can be activated by?

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Re: Gvars... Wassat!!!

Post by jhsa » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:58 pm

i'm at the field now and need help. Is it possible to set pot 3 with a GVAR so I can turn the wind down a bit? ;) :D
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Re: Gvars... Wassat!!!

Post by Flaps 30 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:04 pm

Shurrup you or I will give you a slap. :evil: That will sort out your wind. :twisted:

This is serious. The need to know about this Global Variable Sub Mixer is getting to me. I might be missing out on something that just might change everything in the way I fly.

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Re: Gvars... Wassat!!!

Post by Rob Thomson » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:19 pm

Right....

How will it help you... Like everything in open9x/er9x you can do things in many ways. So their is no clear answer.

A broad level and simple use of it is as follows:

Say you have a wing, with 2 servos in it. Now.. say you want to adjust the expo or differential on the servos, you would have to edit two mixes. Adjusting each to suit.

Now... here comes the Gvar

Set the expo to use GVAR1.

Then.. if you want to adjust the expo for both servos, you only edit the one gvar!

That is a very simple example.

Where things get interesting is the ability to dynamically adjust a gvar 'in flight'.

Examples..

You have a jet, and you want to increase the expo the faster you go.
You have a glider with crow. You need to reduce the differential throw as crow gets larger - to ensure you always have aileron control.
You need to tune the exact amount of up/down/left/right on a vtail model so the rudder causes no pitch. Adjust the WEIGHT with a gvar
etc...

Do those make sense now?

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Re: Gvars... Wassat!!!

Post by Kilrah » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:20 pm

It's not really a mixer, it's... a variable ;)

The following applies to open9x:

When you have a normal mixer, normally you set the weight, offset, differential with a number, which is "fixed". There, instead of setting for example weight to 70%, you set weight to "GV1" (long press MENU on the weight setting). THEN, you go set GVAR1 to 70 somewhere else (in the curves menu for stock board with m64, in the flight phases for all others).
The big difference is that you can then use the "Adjust GV1" custom function to change the value of GV1 in flight using any source as the input. GVARS can be used in all mixer and DR/Expo parameters, custom switches, can be played etc..
So that's one usage - Defining a parameter that you can adjust dynamically.

Another usage as described by Rob, is if you have several mixes that need the same weight for example, but you need to adjust it frequently. Instead of having to change weight from 90 to 80 on 6 different mixes, you'll set the weight of all 6 mixes to GV1, then you only need to change the value of GV1 from 90 to 80 in one place and all mixes will be adjusted.

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Re: Gvars... Wassat!!!

Post by jhsa » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:44 pm

Flaps 30 wrote:Shurrup you or I will give you a slap. :evil: That will sort out your wind. :twisted:
OUUCH!! That hurts :mrgreen: :mrgreen: electronic slap received ;)
This is serious. The need to know about this Global Variable Sub Mixer is getting to me. I might be missing out on something that just might change everything in the way I fly.
I agree, but the more you get angry about it, the longer it will get to understand it. Relax, have a bee.. eerrr a cup of coffee..
I wouldn't say it would change everything in the way we fly.. As long as I understand it will just allow us to save some mixes and do some other cool stuff..

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Re: Gvars... Wassat!!!

Post by jhsa » Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:02 pm

Kilrah wrote: Another usage as described by Rob, is if you have several mixes that need the same weight for example, but you need to adjust it frequently. Instead of having to change weight from 90 to 80 on 6 different mixes, you'll set the weight of all 6 mixes to GV1, then you only need to change the value of GV1 from 90 to 80 in one place and all mixes will be adjusted.
But normally we just adjust the weight once and that's it, so what's the point?
I can see it being usefull to fine tunning a model in flight but that's it.. after that you just set a fixed value for the weight, offset, whatever...

And as for replacing all the weights with one GVAR, that simply won't work because. the different mixes need different values..

Or maybe I'm missing something..
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Re: Gvars... Wassat!!!

Post by Kilrah » Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:09 pm

I said "mixes that need to have the same weight".
You obviously never thought about gliders with 4 servos per wing ;)

There the flight-phase specific GVARs also allow you to set a different value for the same GVAR for each phase, then assign that GVAR for all the parameters that need to follow, and thus don't need to do a whole different set of mixers for each FP.

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Re: Gvars... Wassat!!!

Post by jhsa » Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:17 pm

So, you actually do the crow, flaps, differential,... etc... mixing using different GVAR values? to send the servos to their positions on the different flight phases?
That would explain why the flight phases menus don't don't have anything else but trim, GVARS and switch :o

I was looking at them is morning and thought "WHAT THE HELL....!!!" How do I set a flight phase to landing mode with crow and all that?? there are no options here.. So, are the GVARS the key for that? take or leave it?? If you don't want GVARS (don't compile them), you will only have trims and switch on your flight phases? :D
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Re: Gvars... Wassat!!!

Post by Rob Thomson » Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:19 pm

Or.. As per my examples..

- increase expo as throttle / speed increases
- dynamic adjustment of differential depended non level of crow input.
- simplification of settings. Only adjust in one place.

To be fair... The average pilot and plane can get on just fine without gvars. But.... Starting flying F3F competitions, complex full house gliders... They can save you having loads of mixes, and make fine tuning allot easier.

Rob

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Re: Gvars... Wassat!!!

Post by Kilrah » Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:41 pm

No, you could do it before the GVARs, but you need to do separate mixers (if you look closely, each mixer has a setting for which phase(s) it's active in).
So for example your thermal phase would activate mixers to bring the ailerons down a bit.

The flight phases also have the slow up/down parameters that are useful in many situations to slow the activation of a mixer rather than its input like a mixer's slow setting.

What Rob says. GVARs are not essential at all, pretty much everything could be done before, they just add some flexibility/simplicity in complex setups, and can avoid running out of mixers.

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Re: Gvars... Wassat!!!

Post by Flaps 30 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:54 pm

Hmm.. Okay guys. I am watching at how this is developing and it is plain to me that GVARS in its present form is for nerds and armchair pilots. As Rob says. The average pilot can get along fine without them, and I would also say that given the 'complex' full house glider, you can fly happily without GVARS. Yes having flight phases might help there.

I did go away and gave GVARS a go on Companion. That was painful to put it mildly! Yes I got something working but what the hell! It wasn't worth the effort as it took so long to go through the different tabs setting things up, only to find that what you had done isn't working as you would expect. Thoughts of how to improve the visual look of Companion combined with some form of flow chart pictorial that you could see and maybe adjust parameters on came to mind. Companion and to some extent Eepe is getting cumbersome and clunky as things get added to them. But that is another topic.

So where I stand at present. Yes I can see some advantages to GVARS but I have enough already in the form of mixes to do all I need. The added complexity combined with the poor implementation/visualisation of what could/should be a benefit to most is still way over my head to use on a casual basis, let alone adjust on the TX whilst on the field. So it gets the thumbs down from me in its present form. Sorry chaps.. No criticism of all the work that has gone into it. IMO more work is needed for the general flyer to make use of and understand this feature.

Final comment.. Add more mixers and maybe worth giving some thought to a more universal versatile form of mixer.

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Re: Gvars... Wassat!!!

Post by Rob Thomson » Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:14 pm

I would say that the reason you have had difficulty getting your head round gvars is most likely because you have not had a mix/feature on your models where they become usefull.

I never got the point of it, until at some point I had to try mKe the firmware deal with some rather complex options (negative differential on crow deployment). While I could make the systems do what I wanted without gvars, i found the whole process excessively complex.

Since gvars where added, this complexity is much reduced.

So... Big thumbs up from me.

Remember.. In open9x/companion9x gvars are not enabled by default. It is an advanced function, and usefull only for more advanced models and other specialist functions :-)

IMHO the functions work very well for gvars.

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Re: Gvars... Wassat!!!

Post by jhsa » Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:15 pm

I think we just have to learn to use them properly.. As flaps say (and I must agree with her or I get another slap ;) ) the GVARS are still more for the nerds and people that understand other logic other than the normal pilot do..
Maybe in the future, some changes to the GVARS and/or a good manual with examples will make them easier to understand by the normal mortal person and not only by the Gods that hold all the wisdom..

I'm using them for a feature that I long wanted and it is not possible without the current GVAR implementation. Well, not cuirrent as it will be available in the next release :D
But that has to do with the audio and playing a sequence of files. I guess that not everybody is interested on it.. Certainly not glider pilots ;)
I am as I want to take my noisy and smelly aircraft to the field and practice aerobatics without having anyone there to help me and read all the aerobatic figure sequence to me..
Ok, maybe when I'm not flying, I can connect the trainer cable to turn the RF module off, and listen to some music when I'm alone at the field :D

So are they usefull to me in some way?? Yes, they are :)

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Re: Gvars... Wassat!!!

Post by Flaps 30 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:34 pm

Good lad João - We will have you trained in no time. :)
Rob Thomson wrote:Remember.. In open9x/companion9x gvars are not enabled by default. It is an advanced function, and usefull only for more advanced models and other specialist functions :-)
I agree.. And in a way that is what I am trying to get away from by suggesting what I did at the end of my last post. Maybe I'm alone on this or others are just sitting on the sideline wondering what this is all about, as they understand it perfectly or their eyes glazed over long ago on this subject as they are clueless about this gem. (delete as appropriate)

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Re: Gvars... Wassat!!!

Post by jhsa » Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:38 pm

GVARS are a compile option.. If you don't select them when compiling the firmware with companion, you will have more space for other stuff in the radio's flash memory.. ;)
I want them because now I need them.. But if I had the m64 still, I would probably not select them.. But I'm just thinking loud here.. ;)

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G550Ted
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Location: Savannah, GA, USA

Re: Gvars... Wassat!!!

Post by G550Ted » Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:39 am

Ummm... I'm still on the third page of my scratch pad doing a long hand calculation to determine the sqrt of 13 and how the result may apply to GVAR implementation for any one of my models. :? I don't see an advantage for using GVARs for me now or in the future for what and how I fly. I also don't profess to truly understand their application even for my 4 surface wing powered glider.

Fortunately, GVAR is an option so being able to not select them for a compilation is good for me. Like Flaps 30, I too feel this is something few will implement but appreciate the work done to make it happen for those who can/will use the feature. For the more typical user like me, one thing I would like to have (if possible) is a FW option vice hardware mod (other than installing the switch itself) to add one or more 3 way switches in lieu of the pots.

This one is probably never going to be for me, but once again THANX! to the developers for their work. :ugeek:

Ted

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Kilrah
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Re: Gvars... Wassat!!!

Post by Kilrah » Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:36 am

It IS already coded actually, will be in next release ;)

Code: Select all

# Enable another 3 positions switch to replace a pot
# Values = NO, POT1, POT2, POT3,
3POS = NO

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kaos
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Re: Gvars... Wassat!!!

Post by kaos » Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:49 pm

the use of GVAR for me when this thing started to be included in ersky9x is to change expo/DR in the flight. this probably everyone can use, not just the nerds ;), in every model I fly, the 1st couple batt, I tend to not settle in yet, so I need a little more expo/DR, but with time goes by, I will settle down and need less expo/DR. before I have to set the heli down change the setting then go back up. Just a couple times of landing and take off, that batt is done. but with GVAR, i can just turn a pot a little. once I am settled in the heli/plane I usually fly with 0 expo/DR. ;)
the 2nd thing the average people can use is the flap-30 :mrgreen: .
i have variable flaperon on my plane, some times I want a little more flap or less, I can turn the pot a little to adjust it, but I have to look down and go through menu to see where I set the flap. with GVAR and voice programed correctly, when I turn the knob, it can tell me the exact degree of the flap I am setting with the pot. I don't even need to look down just turn the pot while flying. Of course I always want to end up with Flap 30 (degree) dead on every time when I land. :lol:

rdeanchurch
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Re: Gvars... Wassat!!!

Post by rdeanchurch » Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:51 pm

Jeez, Flaps 30 asked to see your files....FILES. So where is/are the file(s) ?????

Words and words but no example files for us learning impaired....
......That would be lurker ME, no one else implied.
Dean
OldDmbThms: 1. Takeoff, 2. Crash, 3. Repair, GOTO 1

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