Search for Replacement 9x Potentiometers!

Cant get your radio to work? General Hardware issues?

Search for Replacement 9x Potentiometers!

Postby bob195558 » Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:56 pm

:D Hi:
There is now several options to help to repair, replace and/or install replacement Gimbals to fix your BAD Stock 9x Potentiometers.
I have also drew up a sketch of the substandard Stock 9x Potentiometers that maybe useful information.
In the following posts you will find some good info and several good options to help you, to fix your Bad 9x Potentiometers.
(Update: January 07, 2014)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You may be able to take apart your bad Stock 9x Potentiometers and re-crimp the eye-let rivet to the carbon resistant surface,
which may restore the poor connection between them.

You also can add some silver circuit ink from the eye-let rivet to the carbon resistant surface to increase the connection between them.
I purchased the CAIG CircuitWrite Pen Silver Ink and this works very well, but the cost for the CAIG CircuitWrite Pen Silver Ink is high
and you need to be very careful when applying the Silver Ink.

There is now a stock substandard 9x Radio Potentiometer Replacement that you can purchase to replace your damaged 9x Potentiometers.
See page 6 of this post topic for information on where to purchase and how to modify and install a replace stock 9x Potentiometers.
(viewtopic.php?f=95&t=2974&start=150#p54150)

Another option is to modify your old bad 9x Potentiometer using the Hall Effect.
You will see how to building and carefully setting up the Hall Effect to your old bad 9x Potentiometer.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
:D One of the best options is to upgrade to the New FrSky Taranis Replacement Gimbals.
These new Taranis Replacement Gimbals from the FrSky are made very well and for about $30 you will increase the reliability of all your four potentiometer
and you will enjoy the good feel and high manufacturing quality when you upgrade to these new Taranis Replacement Gimbals.

Click here for information on how to install Taranis Replacement Gimbals: (viewtopic.php?f=95&t=4281&start=90)
See Taranis Replacement Gimbals: (viewtopic.php?f=95&t=4281) and (http://www.frsky-rc.com/BBS/viewtopic.p ... 051ee8446a) for more info about using the new Taranis Replacement Gimbals.
See: (http://www.alofthobbies.com/radio-gear/ ... parts.html) . Cost is about $13.50 for each set.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Aurora Gimbals have been used as replacement Gimbals for the stock 9x Radios in the past.
The Aurora Gimbals maybe more difficult to install then the new Taranis Replacement Gimbals.
Click here for more info about installing the Aurora Gimbals: (viewtopic.php?f=7&t=929) Aurora gimbal usable ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I appreciate any help in finding options to replace and/or repair our 9x Radio Potentiometers.
I hope this 9x Potentiometer Sketch will be a help to Search for replacement Potentiometers and/or ways to repair our 9X Potentiometers. :D
Attachments
9X Radio Potentiometer_.jpg
Sketch of the substandard Stock 9x Potentiometers.
Both the Taranis Gimbals and the Stock 9x Radio Gimbals have a total 55 degrees of Gimbal Stick Movement which is 27.5 degrees from Center Stick.
Last edited by bob195558 on Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:42 pm, edited 16 times in total.
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PostThis post was deleted by Kilrah on Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:04 pm.
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Re: Search for Replacement 9x Potentiometers!

Postby ShowMaster » Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:55 pm

Sadly it's not the physical size of the pot that's the main issue here. It's the amount of resistance change when the stick is moved as well as what the total stick range resistance changes. This is needed to keep the servo movement in sync with the stick movement. If it's wrong you would get too much or too little movement.
The pots are usually made to give the correct amount of resistance required by the stick and encoder circuit it controls. As you can see in the stick pot element picture, they're are actually 2 resistive surfaces not 1 to creat the proper 9x stick to resistive change the encoder want to see. Muck of this is done in firmware and that requires special rewriting and takes up space.
MikeB would know more about all this be to date I don't know of a drop in replacement pot that's readily available. Some claim success but have not found large quantities or spares and haven't posted the actual comparison to the real pot linearity range, only that it Mo we their servos. Not good enough info to put them in elevator or ailerons for me?

Here's a picture of the 9x pot element.
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1362772468.319319.jpg

Hopefully HK will sell parts for the 9XR as promised in their original press release?
SM


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Re: Search for Replacement 9x Potentiometers!

Postby Kilrah » Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:04 pm

Many people have been looking for replacements for a couple of years, but nobody's found any (apart from some that cost even more to get than buying a new 9x, i.e those in Spektrum radios). You're not the first at all ;)
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Re: Search for Replacement 9x Potentiometers!

Postby bob195558 » Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:15 pm

Here is a little info that I have.
Note: The 9x Radio's Gimbals have a total of 54 degrees of the Potentiometers spindle rotation. My guest is the 9x Potentiometers has a full 220 degrees of rotation for the full 5 K Resistance (Ohms) when not installed in the 9x gimbals. I have not confirmed this, as I have not removed the 9x Potentiometers the gimbals to check it.
I did check the 9x Potentiometers as it is in the 9x gimbals and the results were 4.7 K of Resistance (Ohms) using the full range of the 9x gimbals throw of 54 degrees.
....................................................

I read some where on the 9x forum, where some one said, that it did not make any difference if the Potentiometers were a 5 K or a 50 K Potentiometers. I am not sure about that, unless,.. . . . . ... when we use the manual calibration settings with the er9x and/or 9xOpen and/or ersky9x, 9xRadio operating program, that it corrects the Potentiometer values. ..........................
I could ask the question and/or several questions of, why dose the original Turnigy V2 9x Radio software have no manual calibration setting and the er9x programs do?
Could it be that the % values between 5k and 50K are so small that it would make little difference in the end results? (Like if we had a 4k pot or a 6K pot would it still work?)
I do not know the answers to these questions. ...................................
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Re: Search for Replacement 9x Potentiometers!

Postby Kilrah » Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:24 pm

The pots rotate 270° mechanically, but the 5K resistive path is only the 60° at the center (you can see a bit the "scratched" zone on SM's photo above). Beyond those the resistance doesn't vary anymore until the end of the mechanical range. That's what makes them hard to find, because it's not standard. The mechanical throw of the gimbals is a bit less than 60°, that's why you see 4.7k.

The pots are wired as a resistive divider (+ at one end, - at the other, and sense in the wiper) This gives a linearly variable voltage whatever the pot's value (up to a "reasonable" range, if you used a 1 MOhm pot the small current drawn by the ADC would cause errors/delays).

The original Turngy software actually has a calibration feature, it's just hidden. It's used once at the factory to account for mechanical aligment tolerances (how the pot's axle is attached to the gimbal, i.e. where the 4.7k window is with regard to the 5k available), and in theory the user shouldn't have to recalibrate again after that. Same as with er9x, you just need to calibrate once then the settings are stored. The thing is that as the user flashes it and thus starts with no calibration, it needs to be done the first time so there needs to be an easy way to do it.
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Re: Search for Replacement 9x Potentiometers!

Postby bob195558 » Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:01 am

Here some pictures of the 9x Radio's Potentiometer.
Attachments
101_5536.JPG
101_5534.JPG
101_5532.JPG
101_5509 b.jpg
101_5527.JPG
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Re: Search for Replacement 9x Potentiometers!

Postby ReSt » Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:20 am

Due to the special construction of a 60 degree pot, as it is used as a voltage divider (like SM explained above) the mechanical range of the pot gives a voltage variation from end to end of about 0.2 volt to 4.7 volt. And this is the range the electronics and the program are designed for. If you use a normal pot with 270 degree range your voltage end to end range will probably be only around 2.0 to 3.0 volt resulting in less signal range.
Adjusting this with the calibration routine will result in 4.5 times less resolution for the channel pulse.

One idea that I had already.
Use a 270 degree pot with 20kOhm or 25 kOhm. use an electric conducting paint and paint the resistive track of the pot starting on both ends towards the middle, leaving the center 60 degrees untouched. That could result in a pot with the similar behaviour as the original.

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Re: Search for Replacement 9x Potentiometers!

Postby bob195558 » Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:48 pm

:idea: ! _______ I have an idea!
This idea is not worked out so maybe its not plausible.
But lets look at it for the possibility that maybe, it could work.
:geek:
If the gimbals problem Potentiometer is totally unrepairable, then we could remove the resistive element end of the 9x Potentiometer.
Make note of which colored wire went to which solder lug termination of the problem Potentiometer and
unsolder and/or cut the three wires free.
This leaves us with the open end of the problem Potentiometer and you can seeing the end of the shaft with its contact wipers.
We need to purchase some other, 5K Potentiometer that will work for are needs and attached it to the opened end of the 9x problem Potentiometer.
We would need to shorten the spindle shaft of the new 5K Potentiometer and attach the two shafts together.
And then attach the two Potentiometer bodies together and after that attach the three wires to the new 5K Potentiometers solder lug termination.
8-)
Selecting a suitable new 5K potentiometer and working out how to attach it to the older 9X problem potentiometer still needs to be worked out.
A narrow body 5K Potentiometer would be preferable because there is limited room for a second Potentiometer.
8-)
If we could accomplish this it would allow us to upgrade these low quality 5K Potentiometer. 8-)
Attachments
101_5543.JPG
Resistive Element End removed from 9x 5K Potentiometer.
101_5534.JPG
9x Potentiometer with the Resistive Element End removed.
101_5521.JPG
View of Right Side Gimbals Removed from 9x Radio.
101_5517.JPG
5K Potentiometer with Support Screw added to help hold pot in place. It dose help!
101_5516.JPG
9x Radio with Right Side Gimbals Removed.
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Re: Search for Replacement 9x Potentiometers!

Postby Kilrah » Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:50 pm

bob195558 wrote:We need to purchase some other, 5K Potentiometer that will work for are needs

That's the main problem, there are no other known 60° pots out there!
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Re: Search for Replacement 9x Potentiometers!

Postby ShowMaster » Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:55 pm

Yes, It's never been about the physical shape or size or shaft length, it's about the the taper per degree of rotation.
Keep thinking as we all want a replacement idea.
SM
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Re: Search for Replacement 9x Potentiometers!

Postby jhsa » Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:16 pm

Sometime ago, someone was designing a circuit (and I think Mike helped on it also) for connecting the aurora gimbals to the 9x.. So, if it's not difficult to find pots with the same size, even if it is not a 60º pot, couldn't the circuit also be used in this case and provide the correct scaling?

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Re: Search for Replacement 9x Potentiometers!

Postby Flaps 30 » Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:13 pm

I don't understand what the problem is with the business with the 'special' range/track that this pot is supposed to have. Has anyone actually measured the resistance over the full range as it shows in the joystick assembly. Failing that. How about the minimum and maximum voltage on the wiper.

To me it would make sense to select a potentiometer value that would give the same resistance change for the given mechanical travel in the joystick assembly. I know that some of you may say that in doing that you are not getting the full voltage range that you would get with the original potentiometer, but does that really matter? After all you calibrate the potentiometers via the software, so that it knows the stick/pot travel/voltage range and treats that as being -100 to +100

Maybe the A/D resolution might not be as good as the original. I cannot answer that one. Maybe someone from the software team could enlighten us on that score. If the difference is minimal, then I don't see an issue with using a standard linear potentiometer.
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Re: Search for Replacement 9x Potentiometers!

Postby Kilrah » Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:17 pm

Flaps 30 wrote:Maybe the A/D resolution might not be as good as the original.

That's the point. The ADC measures the voltage on the wiper. This varies by about 5V with the original pot, but only about 1V with a normal one and the same deflection. So resolution is 5 times lower.
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Re: Search for Replacement 9x Potentiometers!

Postby jhsa » Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:24 pm

This is what I meant on my post above.. It might allow us to use a normal 270º potentiometer..

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=929&p=19330&hilit=aurora+gimbals+circuit#p19330
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Re: Search for Replacement 9x Potentiometers!

Postby ReSt » Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:08 pm

ReSt wrote:
One idea that I had already.
Use a 270 degree pot with 20kOhm or 25 kOhm. use an electric conducting paint and paint the resistive track of the pot starting on both ends towards the middle, leaving the center 60 degrees untouched. That could result in a pot with the similar behaviour as the original.

Reinhard



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Re: Search for Replacement 9x Potentiometers!

Postby jhsa » Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:34 pm

That would also be an option to try..
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Re: Search for Replacement 9x Potentiometers!

Postby Clivew » Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:15 am

The conductive paint sounds a good idea, until you try to do it!
You have to be extremely accurate, and the paint itself has resistance, not predictable.
I spent hours trying to get it right on a modified DX5e and gave up in the end.
I suspect the pots from a Spektrum DX5e or 4e would do the job IF they physically fit :?:
Given some standard pots that do fit, I think I would go with Mike's op amp circuit myself.

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Re: Search for Replacement 9x Potentiometers!

Postby ReSt » Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:06 pm

May depend on the paint you use.

I just tried, if it works, and I believe it really works good and was not hard to do. It may depend on the paint and on the pot.
It took me only minutes to get the following result:
I used a linear pot with 22kOhm that I had laying around. I opened it up, draw some markers according about + - 30 degree from center and paintet the resitive track with a conducting silver.
Had it dry some minutes (used the heat of the soldering iron to warm it up) made some notches at the housing to work as mechanical limit and put it together again.

The pot now has a total resistance of 6.6 kOhm.

I connected it to a 5 Volt BEC and measured the voltage of the middle contact.
With a mechanical angle of about + - 30 degree, it moves from 0.40 Volt to 4.51 Volt (the 5 volt indeed were only 4.88 v so with real 5 volt the variation will even be more.)

That. to my mind shows, that you "only" need a mechanically fitting pot to make a replacement.

Reinhard
Min_Volt.JPG
Minimum voltage

Center_Volt.JPG
Center voltage

Max_Volt.JPG
Maximum voltage
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Re: Search for Replacement 9x Potentiometers!

Postby jhsa » Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:52 pm

That. to my mind shows, that you "only" need a mechanically fitting pot to make a replacement.


Or the back of another pot that fits the original housing..

Well done Reinhard. We finally start having some solutions for this problem.. Question though. Any change of the paint start peeling off with time and varying the resistance?? I guess it would have to be a loooonng time.. :D
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Re: Search for Replacement 9x Potentiometers!

Postby Flaps 30 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:17 pm

The Holy Grail would be to find the source of these pots, rather than taking one apart to modify. I prefer sealed pots with plastic film tracks. They have a very long lifespan.

The alternative would be to buy a few new transmitters, which for many it isn't a problem as they seem to have four or five operational, along with a couple of 'dead' ones they cannibalise bits from.
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Re: Search for Replacement 9x Potentiometers!

Postby jhsa » Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:28 pm

Sourcing the pots is the big problem. It seems it's just not possible. Many of us tried, myself included, with no results.
Buying more transmitters is not an option for many people as well, so yes, a good easy fix is very welcome and it seems we already have 3..
Crimping the contacts carefully with some needle pliers, getting another normal linear pot and applying conductive paint, or use the opamp circuit with a normal linear pot..

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Re: Search for Replacement 9x Potentiometers!

Postby Flaps 30 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:40 pm

Perhaps you were looking in the wrong place .João
jhsa wrote:or use the opamp circuit with a normal linear pot.

That does seem to be a viable alternative. Now all it needs is for some enterprising soul to come up with a good quality pot and a small PCB (slightly bigger than the one already there) that has the op amp and the resistors on board. If one end of the pot is zero volts and the other is VCC then no extra wires would be needed. I would buy a couple just to have them as spares. :)
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Re: Search for Replacement 9x Potentiometers!

Postby ReSt » Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:04 pm

Forgot to upload one more picture.

This is how the track looks like after painting it.
Btw, the resistance that I measured for one of the silvertracks was 22 Ohm (with only a low pressure on the contact, to not hurt the silver coating).
When the mechanical range of the pot is limited to the range of the stick movement, there is nothing that could hurt the silver track. I believe that it will stay functional for a long time.

Reinhard

Painted pot.JPG
Silver painted tracks
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Re: Search for Replacement 9x Potentiometers!

Postby bob195558 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:44 pm

When I worked on my 9x Radio 5K Potentiometers there is clear grease on the wipers and the resistive element end.
This grease must be for lubrication and it looks like it is Petroleum Jelly. 8-)

:?:
Was there any lubricating grease inside of the 22K Potentiometers which you painted with electric conducting paint?
:?:
And if you were to apply some lubricating grease to the conducting paint, would it soften the conducting paint causing it to fail?
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Re: Search for Replacement 9x Potentiometers!

Postby bob195558 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:18 pm

These joysticks cost more then the 9x Radio, But Check this out there maybe something we could use:

http://www.digikey.com/product-search/e ... ntiometers

and/or 5K Joysticks



http://www.digikey.com/scripts/dksearch ... =0&PV1=611


The Rotation Angle: I think is the Gimbals, Total Degrees of Rotation Movement of the Gimbals Sticks.
Like Rotation Angle: 54°

When I view the pictures of the 5K Joysticks, I see a lot of 5K Potentiometers being used on them that may work for us.
But when I do a search for 5K Potentiometers, ........... they seem not be there for purchase.
Maybe I am not searching with the right Data.
Last edited by bob195558 on Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostThis post was deleted by bob195558 on Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:41 pm.
Reason: I edited the one fore it with the updated messages

Re: Search for Replacement 9x Potentiometers!

Postby bob195558 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:48 pm

Could this one work?

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/e ... ND/1088604

And if it could not work, why would it not work?
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Re: Search for Replacement 9x Potentiometers!

Postby ReSt » Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:59 pm

bob195558 wrote: :?:
Was there any lubricating grease inside of the 22K Potentiometers which you painted with electric conducting paint?


Yes there was somekind of a grease. In the range where I was going to paint, I wiped it away with my fingers.

:?:
And if you were to apply some lubricating grease to the conducting paint, would it soften the conducting paint causing it to fail?


I don't know, but that's normally not required, as the wiper does never touch the silver coating. But I suppose that not much would happen.

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Re: Search for Replacement 9x Potentiometers!

Postby bob195558 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:09 pm

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