Please explain Trainer mode

Programing help and example for all firmwares based on thus's th9 firmware.
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nollox
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Please explain Trainer mode

Post by nollox »

NOTE: The explanation below was a misconception. This is NOT how the trainer scenario works.
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I'm having difficulty setting up the training mode on two transmitters - a 9xr Pro (the student transmitter) and a 9xr (the trainer's buddy box)

Please correct me if my understanding of the scenario is incorrect.

We have a new flyer (me) who has a plane and a transmitter, but he's scared to fly the plane on his own because he knows he'll crash it. However, we have a good flyer on hand who offers to stand in as trainer. The student's transmitter is bound to the receiver in his plane, and the trainer removes his module, just so it can't get in the way of anything. As he can't transmit, we'll call his control the Buddy box.

The normal settings on the two boxes are ...

Code: Select all

Student            Trainer - all his models use
1 Thr               1 Rud
2 Rud               2 Ele
3 Ele               3 Thr
4 Ail               4 Ail
However - the channels in the receiver are connected as in the student's transmitter, so the buddy box has to have a model programmed into it with the right channels for the right control surfaces, so that when the trainer moves Rudder to the right, the student's transmitter will send +30 on channel 2.

The trainer then sets up...

Code: Select all

Dummy model
1 Thr
2 Rud
3 Ele
4 Ail
... and selects it

OK, so we go flying. The student seems hell-bent on doing a bit of ploughing, and the trainer decides he had better step in. He flips the trainer switch and takes control of the model. But it must surely be the trainer who has programmed into the buddy box which switch he wants to use?

I have been watching a video on setting up both controllers, and it seems that all the setup, even which switch to use, is done on the student's box.
I have been through the video several times, but I can't make it work. I think this whole exercise would be easier for me if I understood the mechanics of how it works - which box is doing the transmitting, and which box is programmed for training mode. The video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpu0lCbnynU starts off by saying "I'll show you step by step how to use the 9xr as a trainer" - but then it seems to me that he sets up the 9xr as the student box, because the other box doesn't have a module in it.

What is the principle? Does the trainer program into his buddy box the configuration of channels he will be controlling on the transmitter, or does the student do that, and the information is sent to the buddy box from the student's transmitter? I would assume the former, as the trainer may have whatever followed the stone tablet, and the student's 9xr pro should not make assumptions about the buddy box's abilities. One assumes, however, that the buddy box can be manually programmed. I assume that the student transmitter is the slave in this scanario, and the trainer's box is the master? And how do the two boxes know which is which? - Just by which one gets powered on first?

I'm pretty sure my cable is working, because when I switch the buddy box on and off, the calibrated signals in the student transmitter all change - but they don't change when I move the sticks on the buddy box.

There's a forest in front of me. Can somebody point out where the wood is?
Last edited by nollox on Sat May 14, 2016 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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jhsa
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Re: Please explain Trainer mode

Post by jhsa »

Ok, it seems you are confused.. You got the radios swapped :)
Lets say teacher and student instead.
The teacher will fly with the MASTER radio, which is the radio bound with the receiver in the plane.
The student will use the other radio that connects to the master radio. The student radio can have the module removed, but it is not necessary to do it.

For a good explanation, please download the New er9x manual had read the trainer chapter. It explains how to setup the trainer.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6473

João
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nollox
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Re: Please explain Trainer mode

Post by nollox »

It seems, then, that the function was set up more with a school in mind, where the teacher has a plane which he allows the student to control. So in my case (student who wants to fly his own plane with an experienced pilot as trainer), I should set my transmitter, which is bound to the plane, as the trainer and hand it to the teacher, and use a different one as the student controller. Yes, I think I've got it now.

The misconception on my part was due to the teacher using a Mode-1 transmitter, while I have a Mode-2 transmitter - so it would have been impossible for me to hand my transmitter to him. This means that the onus is on the teacher to program his box and bind it to my model. He didn't know how to do it, and showed no interest in finding out, so it involves me taking his transmitter home with me, because I'm not familiar with what to do (as I'm sure you have concluded), and I need to be in front of my PC when I'm doing it for the first time.

I did read the manual, but because of my preconception that the student would hold the transmitting controller and the trainer (teacher) would hold the Buddy box, which would cause the transmitting controller to transmit the right thing (which is what I want), the manual didn't make sense to me either. As you are putting together a new Erski9x manual, perhaps it would be a moment to explain the scenario more clearly.

I'm reasonably articulate, so perhaps I could help with that section? It's just a case of explaining the training scenario in a paragraph before the section on how to set it all up.

Many thanks, Joao,
Mike
Last edited by nollox on Sat May 14, 2016 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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jhsa
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Re: Please explain Trainer mode

Post by jhsa »

nollox wrote:It seems, then, that the function was set up more with a school in mind, where the teacher has a plane which he allows the student to control. So in my case (student who wants to fly his own plane with an experienced pilot as trainer), I should set my transmitter as the teacher and hand it to the teacher, and use a different one as the student controller. Yes, I think I've got it now.
Yes, that's it. The other option is to bind the plane to your teacher's radio and use yours as student.
I did read the manual, but because of my preconception that the student would hold the transmitting controller and the trainer (teacher) would cause the transmitting controller to transmit the right thing (which is what I want), the manual didn't make sense to me either. As you are putting together a new Erski9x manual, perhaps it would be a moment to explain the scenario more clearly.

Many thanks, Joao,
Mike
Mike, I think the manual couldn't be clearer. Please see the quotes below.
This menu (see picture on next page) is used when the transmitter is functioning as the Master in a
“buddy box” arrangement. The Master transmitter is the one held by the instructor. It is programmed
for the model and the model’s receiver is bound to it.
The student uses the Slave transmitter, which
does not transmit but sends a PPM stream that conveys channels 1 to 8 to the Master transmitter via
the trainer port and trainer cable.
The Master and Slave transmitters do not have to be of the same type.
Directly compatible transmitters include the various versions of the 9x,
as well as the 9XR, 9XR Pro and Taranis

The manual even explains step by step how to configure the trainer between 2 radios..
The problem here is that you had a wrong idea of how a trainer setup works. The teacher must always have the Master radio that is bound to the model. That way he can take control whether the student wants it or not. It is very common people learning to think they have full control when they don't, so the teacher must at all times be able to take control of the plane..

João
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nollox
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Re: Please explain Trainer mode

Post by nollox »

Sorry - you were too quick. I was editing my entry. :-(

nollox
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Re: Please explain Trainer mode

Post by nollox »

Yes, you're right. On re-reading, the manual is indeed clear. I'm an idiot (an embarrassed one).
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jhsa
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Re: Please explain Trainer mode

Post by jhsa »

No you're not :) It's normal for people to think the way you did. This can be a bit confusing sometimes :)

João
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ReSt
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Re: Please explain Trainer mode

Post by ReSt »

The flexibility of ER9x allows you to get this behaviour.

The teacher must set up one channel (e.g. CH6) that signals that the teacher wants control.
In ER9X that is e.g. a switch that flips a channel value between -100 and +100

The student must setup the (e.g. four standard) channels to switch the signal between the stick value and the PPMx value that is supplied via the cord between teacher and student radio.

Set up a logical switch that switches, when the PPMx value is greater than e.g. +50

To connect both radios, power on the student radio (that now becomes the master) and plug in the mono audio cable.
Leave the teacher radio powered off and plug in the audio cable (it becomes the slave).

As long as the teacher's switch is off, the students radio uses the values from its own sticks. When the teacher flips his switch, the logic switch gets active and the students radio uses the PPMx values that come from the teacher.

BUT...
you can not as simply calibrate the teachers PPM values as it is possible when using student and teacher in the original way.

Student setup:

CH1 100% CH13
CH2 100% CH14
Ch3 100% CH15
CH4 100% CH16

CH13 100% Ail
R 100% PPM1 Sw(L1)
Ch14 100% Ele
R 100% PPM2 Sw(L1)
Ch15 100% Thr
R 100% PPM3 Sw(L1)
Ch16 100% Rud
R 100% PPM4 Sw(L1)

Logical Switches
L1 v>val PPM6 50


Teacher setup:
Ch6 Full Trn

Reinhard
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Kilrah
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Re: Please explain Trainer mode

Post by Kilrah »

...and it is not really recommendable, as the "usual" setup makes sure that if connection between teacher and student is lost (cable unplugged by moving around too much, common) the teacher has control.

With that setup it's the already confused student who'd be left on his own.
Daedalus66
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Please explain Trainer mode

Post by Daedalus66 »

The trainer or buddy box arrangement was developed around 40 years ago and still works in essentially the same way, for the simple reason that it's the only practical way to do it. There are many variations in the detail, but the fundamentals are as follows:
1. Control of the model defaults to the experienced flyer, who we'll call the instructor. That means the model must be controlled by and bound to the transmitter in the instructor's hands. This is called the master transmitter.
2. The student has a control box which does not transmit, often called a bit confusingly the student or slave "transmitter", connected to the master transmitter.
3. When the instructor presses the trainer button or momentary switch on the master transmitter, control is transferred to the student's box. When the button is released, control is restored instantly to the instructor. (That "instantly" is vital!)
There are many variations, such as wireless trainer setups with the instructor being able to take control by simply moving a stick (I am struggling to learn to leave the sticks alone after 40-odd years of keeping my hand on them while instructing!). As well, some setups transfer just the basic four controls, while others give the student other controls.
But in the end, the fundamentals always come down to these three principles.
nollox
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Re: Please explain Trainer mode

Post by nollox »

Joao, you said "It's normal for people to think the way you did. This can be a bit confusing sometimes"
I went to the club today, and four experienced pilots, including the guy who lent me a Tx to sort it out, all assumed, as I had, that it would be the student Tx that would transmit. One guy knew how it worked. I feel a bit less of an idiot now - but really, I must get to grips with this reading trick sometime.

My thanks to all contributors to this thread.
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jhsa
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Re: Please explain Trainer mode

Post by jhsa »

I told you, you were no idiot :D
Many people really don't understand how trainer works..
We are always learning, no matter how experienced we are ;) :)

João
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Daedalus66
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Please explain Trainer mode

Post by Daedalus66 »

It's useful to have a discussion like this one to clear the air and open the way to exploring the many options that exist within the the framework of the trainer setup.

If you want to try a related question on people, ask them about hooking up a simulator to the trainer port on a transmitter. Which role should the transmitter play, master or slave?

Most people who haven't tried it will instinctively say master. After all, they say, the transmitter is controlling the simulator. The correct answer is, however, slave. In this situation it does the same job as in a trainer setup. In one case it supplies a control signal (PPM) via the trainer port that can be fed to the master transmitter and in the other it feeds the simulator. What it doesn't do in either case is (directly) feed an RF module that transmits to a model.

Once you understand one, the other follows easily. But either trainer or simulator can be confusing.

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