Big Problem with my 9xtreme radio.

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jhsa
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Big Problem with my 9xtreme radio.

Post by jhsa » Sat Aug 06, 2016 11:56 pm

Guys, I think I need your help.
Beginning of July I have found out a big problem on my "Meant to be" main radio, which has a 9x board with a m128 processor, and a 9xtreme board installed on top of it.
I have installed 4 extra pushbuttons (switches), changed the ELE switch from 2 position to 3 position, Bluetooth, rotary encoder, Taranis gimbals and a Taranis slider..

So, a while ago I was programming the voice on a model, and when I exited the editing, sometimes the screen would go completely crazy. Then one day after I was showing the radio to a friend, changed models, and the screen froze completely when I pressed exit to clear the stick or switch warnings.
Since then Mike and I have been trying to find out what the problem is. Mike thinks that it could have something to do with the capacitors on the menu, exit, etc keys.

I can reproduce the problem by hitting the Exit key very quicky. I mean reeeally quickly.
I found out that if I hit the down and exit keys very quickly alternating between them, it might be easier to make the problem happen, but I'm not sure.
The problem show in a few different ways.
Sometimes, the screen freezes and the keys will not work.
Other times the screen has a kind of sweeping effect.
Also, sometimes the screen can't be read at all, as there is some kind of mess only, like lines moving very fast.. Can't describe it.

I never noticed that the radio stopped controlling the servos, but also, i didn't check with a receiver connected.

Yesterday, I was playing simulator with my son, and had the radio connected to the PC via USB.
After a while the model stopped responding to my commands. I looked down at the radio, and it was completely frozen. Nothing would work. It was ON but dead, screen was showing a frozen "Bars" main screen. :(

So, what I would like to ask you is, if your 9x board has an m128 on it, could you please try hitting the exit key like crazy, or the exit and down keys as described above, and see if anything strange happens?
It might take a while until it happens..
Obviously I can't risk flying my models with this radio and if the problem is not found, I will have to unfortunately discard both the 9x and 9xtreme boards, and install an extra Ar9x board I have here..

Thank you for your help..

João
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bob195558
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Re: Big Problem with my 9xtreme radio.

Post by bob195558 » Sun Aug 07, 2016 2:06 am

Hi João,
If this problem can not be corrected, maybe could upgrade to the M2561 processor and then be able to use 9Xtreme board with your 9x radio.
My 9x radio with the 9Xtreme upgrade board has the M64 processor so I can not test for this problem.

Bob B.
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KAL
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Re: Big Problem with my 9xtreme radio.

Post by KAL » Sun Aug 07, 2016 8:45 am

Hi João,

unfortunately I cannot test, 'cause every 9X in my reach I changed to M2561.

Thinking about the problems with M128 that occured in the past (the analog ground thing...)
I also would deem the M128 as the evildoer.

Changing to M2561 as Bob suggests is not an option?

Klaus
( TH9X / 9XTreme / FrSky DHT / Spektrum / Multi / RotEnc )
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Re: Big Problem with my 9xtreme radio.

Post by jhsa » Sun Aug 07, 2016 9:10 am

It could be an option. I think I still have some chips.
There is a another reason I asked specially for the board with m128. All new 9x radios from Hobbyking come with m128. :o And no one can expect normal modelers to change chips right? This is only for a few of us. Screwing a board on top of, or replacing the 9x board can be done by anyone that is able to open his radio and adjust the gimbal tension. Now, replacing a chip is a completely different story ;)

But could you please do this little test also with the m64 and m2561? Mike couldn't reproduce it with his m64 but I think it should be tested by more people.
I have the feeling that it's not only the 9x board that is at fault, specially as far as the radio stopping completely is concerned. This last time, the radio frozen completely. Even the USB connection seemed to have been lost.. And I didn't even touch the exit key. I was just flying the plane on the simulator. Sometimes when the problem happens, it also loses the audio. Sometimes it starts vibrating and it doesn't stop. All this IS NOT controlled by the 9x board.

I had my radio working with the m128 ONLY, for over 3 years with all the mods possible, and never had a glicth. Even having not done the trims mod because I could never reproduce the problem on any of my radios.

João
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Re: Big Problem with my 9xtreme radio.

Post by mmilan » Sun Aug 07, 2016 10:56 am

Joao,
I have the newer replacement boards that have a m128 in 4 9xs that also have 9Xtremes. I will run your test latter this morning on all of them and post.
Mike


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Re: Big Problem with my 9xtreme radio.

Post by ReSt » Sun Aug 07, 2016 11:06 am

I have a TG9Y with the original board and the processor replaced with an M128.
I do have the eMartee voice module, the resistor fix, the Trim button fix and a permanently wired connector for the USBASP programmer.
And I run a somewhat modified Version of ER9x that also changes some behaviour of the e.g. Exit switch (e.g. Exit short always goes back one menu level, up or down stay in their level).

I tried the Exit and Down keys for some time as fast as I could and it did never fail.

Reinhard

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Re: Big Problem with my 9xtreme radio.

Post by jhsa » Sun Aug 07, 2016 11:42 am

Thanks Reinhard.I also never had a problem with that board alone. When the trim issue came up a few years ago, I tried very hard to make it happen and I was never able to.
With the 9xtreme it does, but I have never noticed until a couple test versions ago. But I already installed the released version (r218), and the problem is also there.
My question is, why would the 9xtreme go crazy if the 9x board went crazy? why would it crash completely while just flying simulator without even having touched any of the keys or switches? This is strange :(


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Re: Big Problem with my 9xtreme radio.

Post by jhsa » Sun Aug 07, 2016 11:43 am

mmilan wrote:Joao,
I have the newer replacement boards that have a m128 in 4 9xs that also have 9Xtremes. I will run your test latter this morning on all of them and post.
Mike
Thank you. That would be great..

João
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Re: Big Problem with my 9xtreme radio.

Post by bob195558 » Sun Aug 07, 2016 12:50 pm

Hi João,
If Mike has not done the Trim Switch Fix with his M128/9Xtreme, you may want to try the Trim Switch Fix and see what happens ?
(viewtopic.php?f=95&t=3594&hilit=the+ana ... 120#p61209)
(viewtopic.php?f=95&t=3594&hilit=the+ana ... 120#p69475)

Bob B.
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Re: Big Problem with my 9xtreme radio.

Post by jhsa » Sun Aug 07, 2016 1:16 pm

Bob, thanks for your suggestion, but the trims fix has nothing to do with this problem.. The trims are now directly handled by the 9xtreme board. Please note that the 9 pin connector that carry trim and stick signals now connect directly to the 9xtreme. The old 9x trims pins (NOW FREE) can be used for extra switches or replacing existing 2 position switches with a 3 position switch. I have 4 push buttons installed. and I don't have to press any of them to make the problem happen, so I guess that rules them out.. :)

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Re: Big Problem with my 9xtreme radio.

Post by jhsa » Sun Aug 07, 2016 2:20 pm

This post is for Mike if he is following this.. ;)

A while ago I have replaced a broken 12 way connector on this radio. I left the wires a bit longer so i could plug and unplug it better. Mike suggested that the wires being a bit longer could possible cause problems.

Ok, I just replaced the back of the radio completely with an un-modded one. I got resets. I have the latest test firmware Mike sent me, which logs different parameters, useful to diagnose the problem.
As there are no push buttons on this original backboard, these were disconnected, as well as the haptic and the telemetry.
So, that eliminates my work replacing the 12 way connector as a possible cause of the problem.

Next connected this radio's back board again but left everything unconnected, just connected the 12 way plug as it brings power to the boards.
Disconnected both 9 way connectors that bring the stick positions and trims to the 9xtreme board. Also disconnected the 6 pin connector that brings some of the switches (I think). That means, the 9xtreme is only connected to the 9x mainboard by the pogo pins and the 12 way connector with the red wires.
The same, the radio resets if I quickly press the exit key.. Sometimes even when I first press it to clear the warnings. :(
I even got the sweeping effect on the screen once. (Mike knows what I'm talking about) ;)

So, none of my mods is causing this problem. The sticks and the trims are not causing this problem.
The only thing left I can do, I guess, is to remove the capacitor from the pin where the EXIT key connects to the m128 processor. And if this turns out to be the cause of the problem, it is a motive for great concern, in my opinion. :o :(

João
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Re: Big Problem with my 9xtreme radio.

Post by OctavioS » Sun Aug 07, 2016 2:49 pm

The expert in distress, heheh. Man I can't help you, sorry. You know more than me. Good luck.
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Re: Big Problem with my 9xtreme radio.

Post by ReSt » Sun Aug 07, 2016 3:31 pm

Do you get resets, when the Tx is opened up, that is, no mechanical contact between the front half (with the switches) and the back half with the boards? (Pogo pins getting poor contact when a switch mechanically is actuated?)

Reinhard

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jhsa
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Re: Big Problem with my 9xtreme radio.

Post by jhsa » Sun Aug 07, 2016 3:52 pm

OctavioS wrote:The expert in distress,
Ha ha ha :mrgreen: I like it.. But I'm no expert, I'm afraid ;) :)

Gentlemen, it looks like the capacitor on the Processor pin that connects to the EXIT button was the culprit :(
I removed and been trying to reproduce a reset, and it seems it doesn't. Will continue to test. I also found out that the first reset at power ON seems to be normal.
Mike, the capacitor measured around 124.5nF on my multimeter. Does this ring any bell??
Should I remove all capacitors from all the pins that connect to keys and switches??

This finding seems to rise a few questions:
- Most of the 9x radios sold at the moment seem to have m128 processors. So, people might might be flying with a radio that can go crazy at any time without warning?

- Is there a chance this can also happen with other processors (m64 and m2561)??

- Why is the 9xtreme going also crazy when the 9x board crashes, leaving the radio inop? Haptic going crazy, no voice, no switches working, etc. I know that some switches are handled by the 9xt, but I have seen these also stop working. The haptic is handled by the 9xt and went crazy.

- Why did the radio totally crashed yesterday(or the day before) when connected via USB to the computer and only using the sticks while flying simulator? Imagine that this happened at the field :o

I think I can strongly recommend everybody to make at least this test, but then, you don't know which key or switch that might be affected.. As far as I can see,it is just like a clock bomb waiting to go off on your hands :(
I know this sounds dramatic, but IT IS dramatic.. :(

João
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Re: Big Problem with my 9xtreme radio.

Post by jhsa » Sun Aug 07, 2016 3:56 pm

ReSt wrote:Do you get resets, when the Tx is opened up, that is, no mechanical contact between the front half (with the switches) and the back half with the boards? (Pogo pins getting poor contact when a switch mechanically is actuated?)

Reinhard
I removed that metal part that connected the ground between both halves of the radio.
If the pogo pins were not making good contact I think I would be able to flash the 9x mainboard with the 9xtreme, some of the times. It would also fail more often even when I wasn't pressing any key.

Please read my post above, I think I found the problem, and Mike seem to have been right since day one, which isn't a surprise to me :)

João
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Re: Big Problem with my 9xtreme radio.

Post by Kilrah » Sun Aug 07, 2016 3:59 pm

jhsa wrote:As far as I can see,it is just like a clock bomb waiting to go off on your hands :(
Yes, and that was already determined back when the trim reboot case was found - this design is c**p and should just not be allowed to exist in this form anymore.

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Re: Big Problem with my 9xtreme radio.

Post by jhsa » Sun Aug 07, 2016 4:14 pm

I guess you mean the 9x mainboard.
yes, but i did fly mine for about 4 years with the same m128 processor and er9x, all mods done except the trims mod, which would be one more reason for having problems. The fact is, I never had a problem with it.. Not a single glitch.. I would have grounded the radio If It did have a glitch like this..
Thinking I was just about to fly a giant(ish) scale Piper PA-18 J3 with it :mrgreen:

Also my Ar9x radio will have to be very well tested now even if it looks like that it has no problems. Meanwhile and unfortunately that plane will have to be flown with a Futaba T8FG for now. Shame, I will miss the telemetry and the radio menus are a complete mess. :)
But I need to help the guys towing the gliders..

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Re: Big Problem with my 9xtreme radio.

Post by Kilrah » Sun Aug 07, 2016 4:39 pm

jhsa wrote:The fact is, I never had a problem with it.. Not a single glitch.. I would have grounded the radio If It did have a glitch like this..
Yes and now you do, we pretty much know why and thus know that any of them out there can do the same at any time - can't say it's a good thing.

The right thing to do would have been to correct these issues years ago but the manufacturer never gave a damn, still doesn't since recent photos show that HK or whoever has made a new batch of boards, of course still without correcting anything, AND even worse they are now using knockoff copies instead of genuine Atmel micros.

So given the lack of "doing the right thing" and rather "doing the worst possible" yes the only alternative in the interest of everyone and their safety would be to finally bury this thing deep in the ground for good.

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Re: Big Problem with my 9xtreme radio.

Post by jhsa » Sun Aug 07, 2016 4:51 pm

Mike always alerted for the caps on the digital pins as far as I remember. If you can do the telemetry mod, you can also remove them without any problem. But as far as my problem is concerned, there are other questions that need to be answered. I don't think the capacitor was causing all the problems I have seen.. It might have triggered other hidden problems and WE DON'T KNOW.
You know I'm not a person to raise alarms unless there is a good reason for that. But I think this might be a big issue.
I could just close my radio now and go fly, but I'm not sure there isn't still something wrong. :(

João

EDIT: Better I do that PPM resistor mod now, before I blow the 9xtreme up as well :(
I'm really P'ed OFF with this, sorry guys, not your fault..
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Re: Big Problem with my 9xtreme radio.

Post by Kilrah » Sun Aug 07, 2016 5:28 pm

I would replace the processor before anything.
The issue with the caps is that they create voltage spikes, and the repeat of those over time can very well cause cumulative wear on the MCU and cause it to eventually start malfunctioning more and more often. Removing the cap might "hide" the problem temporarily by reducing/eliminating the spikes from that particular key that might have been stronger than others, but the damage would be done and could still cause further issues later.

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Re: Big Problem with my 9xtreme radio.

Post by jhsa » Sun Aug 07, 2016 5:42 pm

Thanks for the suggestion :)
I would also like to read Mike's opinion on the subject :)
But to be honest, to be replacing the processor again, it would be easier to just install another Ar9x board I have here.. :o
I don't know if this board would take another processor change. :( even using chipquick that doesn't let the board get that hot..
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Re: Big Problem with my 9xtreme radio.

Post by OctavioS » Sun Aug 07, 2016 8:26 pm

Kilrah wrote: The right thing to do would have been to correct these issues years ago but the manufacturer never gave a damn, still doesn't since recent photos show that HK or whoever has made a new batch of boards, of course still without correcting anything, AND even worse they are now using knockoff copies instead of genuine Atmel micros.

So given the lack of "doing the right thing" and rather "doing the worst possible" yes the only alternative in the interest of everyone and their safety would be to finally bury this thing deep in the ground for good.
Given the circumstances I agree with this disclosure. But the ar9x board is here and might solve these issues. So there might be light at the end of the tunnel.
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Re: Big Problem with my 9xtreme radio.

Post by jhsa » Sun Aug 07, 2016 8:48 pm

Well, here is my fix.. I think with the right tools and a steady hand it is not so difficult to do..
I haven't seen any resets so far.. will have to test this radio very well now.. I'm still very worried about the problem where the radio just crashed while playing simulator.. :(

I have some extra 21 SMD caps for other projects now :) :D

João
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Re: Big Problem with my 9xtreme radio.

Post by jhsa » Sun Aug 07, 2016 8:54 pm

Hmm, I left the caps on the analog inputs. I wonder if I should have also removed them?? :o
I believe they might smooth the signal a bit and filter some jitter??

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Re: Big Problem with my 9xtreme radio.

Post by jhsa » Mon Aug 08, 2016 2:27 pm

About the USB problem. It happened again. Radio crashed completely. Nothing worked, no control from the sticks, switches, keys, nothing at all. Anyone seen this happen?? Please watch the video.
Thanks
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Re: Big Problem with my 9xtreme radio.

Post by OctavioS » Mon Aug 08, 2016 6:44 pm

jhsa wrote:So, what I would like to ask you is, if your 9x board has an m128 on it, could you please try hitting the exit key like crazy, or the exit and down keys as described above, and see if anything strange happens?
It might take a while until it happens..
Obviously I can't risk flying my models with this radio and if the problem is not found, I will have to unfortunately discard both the 9x and 9xtreme boards, and install an extra Ar9x board I have here..

Thank you for your help..

João
I haven't read this part, I have one radio in these conditions with the 9xtreme and without any other mods. I will try what you said to see if anything goes wrong.
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Re: Big Problem with my 9xtreme radio.

Post by OctavioS » Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:10 pm

I tried to replicate exactly as you wrote and nothing weird happened. It just cycled through screens when I alternated keys and nothing when I used the exit key. Hope it helps.
3 x - 9X TX with 9xtreme board;
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Horus x10s;
Horus x12s.
Too much radios? Yes too much damn radios. No more please.

"Sometimes you just have to take a leap and build your wings on the way down."

120pilot
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:33 pm
Country: -

Re: Big Problem with my 9xtreme radio.

Post by 120pilot » Mon Aug 08, 2016 9:22 pm

Ok just read thru this thread and now I'm concerned. I am using a TGY-9X with 9Xtreme add-on board. I have the telemetry mod and was getting ready to install an extra 3 pos switch when I ran across this thread. I tried to duplicate the problem and my results are the same as OctavioS. At the moment I don't see the problem. Is there more info regarding removing capacitors and or replacing the processor? I will start a search but maybe someone can point me to a good place to start so I get the complete picture? For now I'm going to proceed with adding the extra 3 pos switch. But I intend to get informed about the issues mentioned. :?

James

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OctavioS
Posts: 576
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:54 pm
Country: Portugal
Location: Madeira

Re: Big Problem with my 9xtreme radio.

Post by OctavioS » Mon Aug 08, 2016 9:48 pm

Unfortunately this radio has revealed some problem in the trim switch in the past and now this problem reported by João. With this, people start to realise that its more and more an unreliable radio...unfortunately. I own three of these, first with sp board and TEZ and now with the 9xtreme. Its a bit of an investement.It looked promissing, but now i have my doubts. Mike and opentx team are doing a great job bringing life to a rather basic radio as this one, but as Kilrah said above the manufacturer keeps making it with the same mistakes as the first batch and now using knockoff chips, to get worst.
3 x - 9X TX with 9xtreme board;
Turnigy 9XRpro ;
Frsky Taranis & Taranis +;
Horus x10s;
Horus x12s.
Too much radios? Yes too much damn radios. No more please.

"Sometimes you just have to take a leap and build your wings on the way down."

120pilot
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:33 pm
Country: -

Re: Big Problem with my 9xtreme radio.

Post by 120pilot » Mon Aug 08, 2016 10:39 pm

So are there known fixes for these problems? Or are we stuck with them?

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