Updating Usbasp firmware using Eepe in Windows

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kaos
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Re: Updating Usbasp firmware using Eepe in Windows

Post by kaos » Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:07 am

powering up is already one step better than my Hk programmer. :lol:

that means I am going to tear down the connector and solder the wires to the main board. ;)
the wires came with the programmer is thick, I am using the single strand EIDE wire to do this.
or I can solder the wires to the connector pin without tear the connector off 1st.
ah, I can use the Hk connector reibbon and solder the thin wire to the ribbon and do the test without touching the programmer. ;)
resolder between wires is easy, resoldering the pads on the main board is what I try to avoid. that board is already full of stuff now. ;)
will report back.

edit: just put the programmer in (temporarily) and test it. it works perfectly. burn FW, backup /write eeprom, no mistake. Now just need to take the connectors off the programmer and put in the tx with a mini usb port.;)
I guess I can't blame on rperkins any more if it does not work this time after connector is replaced. :mrgreen:
thx reperkins for a good product.
this also confirmed the HK programmer I got is a DOA. :evil:

edit: rperkins: your programer works perfectly even though it has been decapitated. :lol: look here: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=2933&start=30#p42975

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rperkins
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Re: Updating Usbasp firmware using Eepe in Windows

Post by rperkins » Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:33 am

Cool . thanks for the followup. And it looks like you didnt have to remove the reset cap.

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ShowMaster
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Re: Updating Usbasp firmware using Eepe in Windows

Post by ShowMaster » Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:37 pm

rperkins wrote:Cool . thanks for the followup. And it looks like you didnt have to remove the reset cap.
Yes I see that he didn't remove the cap?
This adds a new mystery to the limiting resistors and USBasp FW version discussion that's been on going?
Mine works but requires me to unplug and replug the USB to computer connection after each flash or read operation and I assumed it was because all my tx boards still have the cap on their reset line. Now I'm thinking I need to try another computer and USB cable to rule out the one I'm using.
More detective work before I remove any parts.
Good info, the picture showing the programmer with the resistor pack and the tx board reset cap says it all!
"Back to the lab' to see what's going on with my setup.
SM



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kaos
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Re: Updating Usbasp firmware using Eepe in Windows

Post by kaos » Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:44 pm

It does do only one operation. after each read/flash need to get out of eepe/usb then replug/open eepe.

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Re: Updating Usbasp firmware using Eepe in Windows

Post by ShowMaster » Sun Mar 10, 2013 5:05 pm

kaos wrote:It does do only one operation. after each read/flash need to get out of eepe/usb then replug/open eepe.
Oh, more interesting info!
Ok then is it because of the FW used or the series limiting resistors or eepe or C9x?
Maybe if eepe and 9x was patched to do the USB port disconnect and re connect after each operation this would solve this for any programmer used? I'm not sure this feature is doable?
The HK programmer doesn't have this issue but in turn it doesn't have any limiting resistors in the programming path, I'm not sure that's a good thing, and it also used a HK version FW. Since the Bates brand USBasp programmer is so popular it's worth finding out why it only does one operation per USB connection no matter where it came from. Of course if it comes with 220 ohm resistors they MUST be replaced with 100 ohms or lower!
This topic get more interesting with each new fact posted. I think we're closing in on a real fix for multiple operations.
SM



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rperkins
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Re: Updating Usbasp firmware using Eepe in Windows

Post by rperkins » Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:43 pm

did you remove the reset cap yet ?

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ShowMaster
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Re: Updating Usbasp firmware using Eepe in Windows

Post by ShowMaster » Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:47 pm

I'll end up removing the cap on a 9x that has the case screws stripped out. I hate removing them but I'll do it to further add to the trouble shooting.
It would seem that it's not the computer or USB port used since it happens to others?
I'll know in a few hours.
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Re: Updating Usbasp firmware using Eepe in Windows

Post by rperkins » Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:55 pm

Showmaster I was speaking to Kaos when speaking of the reset cap

I realize you are doing an apples to apples comparison utilizing betemcu.cn programmers to determine if utilizing different firmware negates the need to remove the cap on the reset and you may have been set back using a betemcu.cn unit that you acquired second hand that had a bad F1 which was dropping the input voltage down. I'm looking forward to your results as it would please me to be able to utilize an official usbasp firmware on my programmers without having to recommend the removal of the large capacitor on the reset. In my testing that solution did not materialize but I probably missed something that hopefully you will catch. Thanks for your assistance.

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Re: Updating Usbasp firmware using Eepe in Windows

Post by ShowMaster » Sun Mar 10, 2013 7:54 pm

I still have to try yours without the cap to see exactly what's requiring the USB having to be be replugged for each new read or write.
Thanks to your idea of giving burn o mat a file to read into I'm now able to read the FLASH and EEPROM loaded.
What I need now is help in what program I use that can tell me the version FW I've got loaded?
I'm slowly getting the hang of this.
As for the cap and testing, I have a 9x board stand alone with the reset given to me to trouble shoot a switch error. I'm going to use it instead of my 9x tx. If I brick it I have a spare m64 and a 1kc Osc to maybe bring it back to life. I need to verify that my 2 programmers from you are now flashed with 2009 and 2011 FW and both have the 100 ohm packs installed. Then I'll try them with and without the cap doing multiple reads at first. Then multiple writes under the same conditions. Then finally lowering or jumping the resistors one at a time to see hat happens. What's holding me up is verifying the FW versions. I also want to read the FW version on the eBay BATE programmer that now is working with no resistors.
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Re: Updating Usbasp firmware using Eepe in Windows

Post by rperkins » Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:42 pm

yea you'll figure out the verify process in burn-o-mat. It is a little quirky but once you master reading/writing it's a small jump.

I'd like to propose and/or discuss a consistent identity for the programming hardware I sell. I'd like to call it the betemcu.cn hardware. That is a working chinese domain namespace. http://betemcu.cn resolves to the BAITE ONLINE STORE at http://www.aliexpress.com. That is currently the supplier of the units I sell.

Here are my reasons for wanting to identify it as betemcu.cn programmer

1. The BAITE online store sells other programmers that utilize different hardware
2. ebay sells many different usbasp programmers. betemcu.cn is just one of them
3. Asia, aka china et al, manufactures many different usbasp units.

So I believe it would be helpful if we identify it as the betemcu.cn unit and forgo names such as baite programmer, ebay programmer, chinese programmer, etc , etc etc. when speaking of this specific piece of hardware.

So when considering usbasp identities that leaves us currently with:
1. the HK programmer
2. the betemcu.cn programmer
3. others. TBD. The list goes on and gets vague when you consider programmers that arent truly usbasp such as the ones the utilize the hid protocol on windows, ponyprog, tinyisp, arduino ,etc,etc

One unique aspect of the betemcu.cn programmer that makes it easy to identify is the MCU in the middle of the unit is set at a 45 degree angle in relationship to the edges of the board. So even if you cant read betemcu.cn on a picture of the unit, you can have a high confidence of identity based on the rotation of the MCU.

thanks

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Re: Updating Usbasp firmware using Eepe in Windows

Post by ShowMaster » Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:24 pm

Here’s what I’ve found out. Without the reset line cap on the tx board cap we all know about, all my brand programmers will do multiple read and writes without having to unplug the programmer.

Now my findings with the betemcu.cn programmer.when used on a 9X or 9XR board with the reset cap line installed.

The supplied firmware does not give the SCK error.
I don’t think the FW version affects the replug required for multiple operations.
Either replugging the USB or 10 pin plug works the same way to allow another operation.

I jumpered/shorted out, each 100 ohm resistor and tried multiple reads but no one jumper alone fixed the problem. It would seem that it’s the combination of all of them that creates this condition as long as the tx board has the reset line cap installed.
Next will be to short out 1, then 2, then 3, and finally the forth resistor and see what happens. That will be later when I have more time tonight.
I have an Ebay version I also have but have no idea of where it was from ( I traded a HK for it when it didn’t work to play with).
I’ll call this a generic eBay brand had a fuse issue I fixed but it still wouldn’t read or program multiple times. From a link I for discussing some of these issues it was recommended that shorting out the series resistors would make it work. I did this and it does and I never thought about it until this discussion started.
The HK has no limiting resistors and seems to deal with the reset cap. So where it stands now is what to do about the cap or resistors. Safety wise it’s probable better to have the resistors installed and just replug the programmer after an operation if you don’t want to open the 9XR case if it has the cap. I understand the newer ones shipping may not have the cap now? As for the 9X, if you solder in the programmer, remove the cap at the same time.
I’m open to trying more circuit mods and testing if you can think of things to try.
SM

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Re: Updating Usbasp firmware using Eepe in Windows

Post by rperkins » Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:41 pm

thanks for taking the time to lend your expertise to this. I multi quoted you and in some cases added emphasis.

ShowMaster wrote:Now my findings with the betemcu.cn programmer.when used on a 9X or 9XR board with the reset cap line installed. The supplied firmware does not give the SCK error. I don’t think the FW version affects the replug required for multiple operations
That is what I found as well on the betemcu.cn programmers.
ShowMaster wrote: The HK has no limiting resistors and seems to deal with the reset cap.
I did order a HK programmer so I'll check it out. If I could get them in bulk I would consider replacing the firmware on them with open source firmware and offering them. However the price, the shipping, and the limit of 10 units to an order make that unworkable at this time. Yes the betemcu.cn programmer is the most economical one around and the distributor is responsive to my queries and has delivered the goods satisfactorily.
ShowMaster wrote: Safety wise it’s probable better to have the resistors installed and just replug the programmer after an operation if you don’t want to open the 9XR case if it has the cap. I understand the newer ones shipping may not have the cap now?
Yes I am hoping the newer 9xr's do not have the cap as most of the pictures of the main board I have seen do not have that cap populated on the board. I ordered a 9XR this week specifically to verify the existance of the cap on the reset.
ShowMaster wrote: As for the 9X, if you solder in the programmer, remove the cap at the same time.
exactly. The cap was designed in the 9X radio when the reset was never going to be pulled down as this radio was not designed to be reprogrammed. It is the same for the 100/220 series resistor issue. The lines that are used for programming are also used to send switch inputs to the MCU. The 9X was not designed to be reprogrammed and the switch circuitry that reduces the current draw on the MCU combined with > ~100 ohm resistors on ANY usbasp programmer makes programming fail. The betemcu.cn programmer is not wrong to utilize 220 series resistors. The 9x as a non programmable radio is not wrong to use 200 ohm series resistors on the switch inputs. Its the combination of the two that is a problem.

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Re: Updating Usbasp firmware using Eepe in Windows

Post by Kilrah » Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:53 pm

The HK programmer is great, it comes with a cable with both 10pin and 6pin plug, works fine out of the box even with cap, and reprogramming them with the open firmware (used Romolo's hex) is a breeze.
I have 4 of them, and everything always went smoothly.

I actually wondered why you didn't go with them. Didn't know about the 10pc/parcel limit though.

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Re: Updating Usbasp firmware using Eepe in Windows

Post by rperkins » Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:03 pm

yes and you have to spend $2000 to get into the wholesale club :(

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kaos
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Re: Updating Usbasp firmware using Eepe in Windows

Post by kaos » Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:57 pm

Kilrah wrote:The HK programmer is great, it comes with a cable with both 10pin and 6pin plug, works fine out of the box even with cap, and reprogramming them with the open firmware (used Romolo's hex) is a breeze.
I have 4 of them, and everything always went smoothly.

I actually wondered why you didn't go with them. Didn't know about the 10pc/parcel limit though.
except my , it was a dud.

rperkins: i have not removed any thing. until there is a definitive solution, I will use it as is. It takes me 1sec to unplug/replug a usb. when there is a definitive solution, let me know. ;)
Actaully, I will order another HK programmer. This 'dud' one was purchased to be used with a ESC programming connector to program ESCs. I just hijacked it to the Tx.
Also which cap you are talking about, a Pic?

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Re: Updating Usbasp firmware using Eepe in Windows

Post by rperkins » Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:13 am

it is the cap on the lower right side of the mcu, in purple. It is marked 476 ( 47 uF) . On some of the schematics it is marked as a 10Uf. Not sure if the schematic is incorrect or if the BOM changed on the board. Removing the cap isnt something I came up with on my own, it was advised to me early on.

viewtopic.php?t=2571&p=38238#p38238

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Re: Updating Usbasp firmware using Eepe in Windows

Post by ShowMaster » Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:39 am

The final best option is to not have the resistors and brand this as a 9x, 9xr equivalent HK programmer with the FW patched to eliminate the SCK error.
No mention of other applications.
Most won't use it for any other projects but their 9x, 9xr programing.

One concern I've noticed that's been mentioned a lot is about keeping the resistors in circuit to make the programmer more universal for other programming projects. Personally I bought 2 because of the low price and fast availability. One will be modified to work like the HK what ever it takes , because the reset line cap is still installed on too many moded boards and I hate to open the cases and risk stripping the screw holes out, again!
The other will keep the resistors and be for all other projects.

The prices are so reasonable and as I've seen to date, the supplier is being very pro active and available to work with us. I just threw away a new bottle of CA that went bad too soon that cost more than the programmer! I'm sure it's going to last a lot longer.

If only we could find an inline 10 pin male to 10 pin female adapter board like the 10 to 6 pin one Randy was supplying. Then the resistors could be installed in the adapter board and it would work for all applications.
What's more common 10 or 6 pin for most applications? If its 6 then I can convert the 10-6 pin adapter and use it.
I may actually cut a spare flat cable and add a small PC board with 100 and 200 ohm resistors on it with solder pads. This will keep the 10 and 6 pin connectors but give a choice of 100, 200, or none for future projects.

If I had some extra 100 ohm packs I'd solder a second one over the first one to see what 50 ohms does?
Personally I plan to order Randy's from now on and just make it work! I really like his support and programming help and videos. I've learned a lot this last week.
SM



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Re: Updating Usbasp firmware using Eepe in Windows

Post by kaos » Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:06 pm

rperkins wrote:it is the cap on the lower right side of the mcu, in purple. It is marked 476 ( 47 uF) . On some of the schematics it is marked as a 10Uf. Not sure if the schematic is incorrect or if the BOM changed on the board. Removing the cap isnt something I came up with on my own, it was advised to me early on.

viewtopic.php?t=2571&p=38238#p38238
so you are saying if I remove this cap (circled) in red, I will be able to do multiple read/write without unplugging the usb?
That won't have any effect on the stability of the main board operation?
Attachments
9x stock board cap.png

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ShowMaster
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Re: Updating Usbasp firmware using Eepe in Windows

Post by ShowMaster » Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:24 pm

YES on the circled cap, confirmed many times with my setups.
That or remove the 100 ohm limiting resistors pack on the usbasp programmer. HK does not have the resistors in the one they sell. It's OK for the 9x and 9XR but if used for other applications it could cause damage to the target device. That's been Randy's concern. Removing the cap, admitted it may be difficult for some, will solve the multiple programming operations. If you're already modifying your 9x then it's just one more task while you're working on the board. If you have a 9XR that came with the cap you may just want to replug the programmer each time so you don't have to take all those screws out and risk stripping the plastic as I did. That or just remove the 100 ohm resistor pack on the programmer and replace it with short jumpers. It's been reported the current 9XR's being shipped may not have the cap on the reset line so that would be great!

Maybe others will post their programmer used and when the received their 9XR and can they do multiple operations per programmer connection? That will help dial in on what the current options are for repeat programming/reading.

It all works, so if in doubt just use it all stock and remember to do a replug if you're doing multiple operations and go flying!
SM

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Re: Updating Usbasp firmware using Eepe in Windows

Post by rperkins » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:34 pm

Yes that is what I recommend for the 9x user.

For the 9xr I am anticipating that current sold versions already have the cap removed. Am in the process of verifying this.

Early 9xr adopters who have problems can remedy as outlined by Showmaster.
1. Replug each time.
2. Remove reset cap.
3. Remove resistors on betemcu.cn programmer.
4 . Use HK or other programmer that doesnt utilize protecting resistors.

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Re: Updating Usbasp firmware using Eepe in Windows

Post by ShowMaster » Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:33 pm

rperkins wrote:Yes that is what I recommend for the 9x user.

For the 9xr I am anticipating that current sold versions already have the cap removed. Am in the process of verifying this.

Early 9xr adopters who have problems can remedy as outlined by Showmaster.
1. Replug each time.
2. Remove reset cap.
3. Remove resistors on betemcu.cn programmer.
4 . Use HK or other programmer that doesnt utilize protecting resistors.
Perfect advice.
In the future if I open the cases of past moded tx's I'll be removing the cap.
For now options 1, 3, and 4 all work for me with various version of programmers. Option 2 works great on the one board where I removed the cap.
I do like the safety of the resistors being in circuit on betemcu.cn programmer.
SM
SM

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kaos
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Re: Updating Usbasp firmware using Eepe in Windows

Post by kaos » Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:57 pm

just removed the cap(or half of it ;) , just unsoldered one side of it) and test it. YES, it worked. now I can read write without replug the usb cord. thx rperkins.

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Re: Updating Usbasp firmware using Eepe in Windows

Post by Flaps 30 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:34 pm

I am finding this capacitor issue on the reset line interesting. I have three different types of programmers (including one with the 100 Ohm resistor pack) and none of them have missed a beat with the capacitor in place. I have changed two M64's for new M128's and did a 'first birthday' on them without making any changes. So I'm wondering what is going on and why so many problems are happening to some and not others.

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Re: Updating Usbasp firmware using Eepe in Windows

Post by kaos » Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:59 pm

I think it is the signal on the borderline issue. some just below the threshhold, some just above. when I check the resistors, on my ohmmeter, same batch of resistors can varied 5 ohm. although it is '5%' variation with < 100 ohm.

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Re: Updating Usbasp firmware using Eepe in Windows

Post by rperkins » Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:06 pm

Hmm. Next time you open one up see if they are 10uf or 47uf. The board I have is 47uf but some of the prints say 10uf . It does look like different revisions of usbasp pulse the reset differently although I have yet to find where only changing the firmware and no hardware changes turned a fail to a pass.

The very first time I hooked up a usbasp to a 9x i had the issue where multiple commands required a replugging of the usb. That was a betemcu.cn unit, 100 ohm resistors, original chinese firmware. I flailed around a long time until I reread someone's advice to remove the reset cap. This has taught me a lot about avr's,isp,c,avrdude,and usbasp. What's funny is the more you learn the more you realize you dont know :)

I just wanna meet the communities needs, not have to remove and replace resistors, and hone my delivery process so that at the end of the day I sleep very well.

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Re: Updating Usbasp firmware using Eepe in Windows

Post by Flaps 30 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:13 pm

Could be a while before I open up my TX's .. When I do I will post what the values are..

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kaos
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Re: Updating Usbasp firmware using Eepe in Windows

Post by kaos » Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:19 pm

mine is a 476.

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Re: Updating Usbasp firmware using Eepe in Windows

Post by rperkins » Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:22 pm

Yea. It seems when i get mine apart it's forever before I get it back together. I've never seen a picture of one with a 10uf. It's the early schematic that says 10uf. I'v always seen 47uf (marked 476), sometimes black , sometimes yellow. Thanks :) :)

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Re: Updating Usbasp firmware using Eepe in Windows

Post by ShowMaster » Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:13 am

FYI
I just tried Randy's USBasp with a 10ufd cap on the reset line and it works every time. Put the stock 47ufd on my test board back and it only works one time. I think this pretty much narrows it down to cap used or no cap. 47ufd no, 10 ufd or no cap yes.
I'm calling this case case closed for me and I'm going on to other projects. I have learned a lot from all this BTW.
I also changed my avatar pix just because.
SM

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Re: Updating Usbasp firmware using Eepe in Windows

Post by rperkins » Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:21 am

Cool. Good troubleshooting.

Ps. I like your new avatar but not as much as flaps.

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