Programming Ele mix with throttle

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plasticbaldy
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Programming Ele mix with throttle

Post by plasticbaldy » Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:54 pm

I'm trying to programme 5 degrees or so of down elevator mix with full throttle on my ER9x when my ElE Dual Rate Sw is down. I tried this ;
CH2
SOURCE - THR (Tried FULL & HALF)
Weight - -20
Switch - !ELE (Also tried ELE)

I got down elevator with throttle closed. No changes to Weight &/or Offset would give me up elevator. I then deleted this mix. Now I have the down elevator still happening with throttle closed.
2 problems.
1 - How do I get the Elevator to return to original behaviour ?
2 - What is the correct mix for my desired elevator/throttle mix.

Daedalus66
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Re: Programming Ele mix with throttle

Post by Daedalus66 » Sun Feb 01, 2015 6:52 pm

First you need to describe more clearly what you want to happen. I'm assuming that you want to add down elevator progressively as the throttle is opened to keep the nose down as the plane flies faster (as opposed to having a fixed amount added only at full throttle, which you seemed to be saying). And you want to be able to turn the mix on and off with the ELE switch (down for ON).

So clearly this involves a second mix on the Ele channel that uses Thr as source. Let's say 5 degrees is 10% of full throw so choose -5 for weight (because the mix goes from -5 to +5 = 10).

But that mix will be at zero when the throttle is at zero (in the middle). We want it at zero when the throttle is at -100 (full down). So we have to include -5 offset.

Finally, we choose ELE as the switch to turn the mix ON when down (or if you want it to operate the other way, choose !ELE.

Here's the resulting mix:
+ -5 Thr ELE

Gives zero down with throttle closed, 10% down with throttle wide open (that should be more than enough to compensate for a nose up tendency -- be sure to test initially with the mix OFF).

As for the previous efforts still causing something to happen at closed throttle, apparently you didn't fully delete the mix. Go back to Mixer and make sure the only mix on the Elevator line is:
CH2 100 Ele

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jhsa
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Re: Programming Ele mix with throttle

Post by jhsa » Sun Feb 01, 2015 7:49 pm

Daedalus66 wrote:
So clearly this involves a second mix on the Ele channel that uses Thr as source. Let's say 5 degrees is 10% of full throw so choose -5 for weight (because the mix goes from -5 to +5 = 10).

But that mix will be at zero when the throttle is at zero (in the middle). We want it at zero when the throttle is at -100 (full down). So we have to include -5 offset.

Finally, we choose ELE as the switch to turn the mix ON when down (or if you want it to operate the other way, choose !ELE.

Here's the resulting mix:
+ -5 Thr ELE

Gives zero down with throttle closed, 10% down with throttle wide open (that should be more than enough to compensate for a nose up tendency -- be sure to test initially with the mix OFF).
Nigel, I think you forgot the offset in the mix ;) :)

Normally down elevator uses the positive side of the weight value, for example 0 to 100, and up elevator 0 to -100, for a weight of 100%
So then to add some down elevator proportionally to the throttle position you need a mix that has some effect on the positive side of the range. As Nigel explained above, you need to add a mix with Thr as source to the Elevator channel.
Assuming you have elevator on channel 2:

CH2 +100% Ele
+5% Thr offset (+5%) switch (ELE)

The offset makes sure the Thr mix uses only positive values between 0 and 10%, depending on the throttle stick position, that will be added to the elevator channel value. The ELE switch enables/disables the mix.

João
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plasticbaldy
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Re: Programming Ele mix with throttle

Post by plasticbaldy » Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:29 pm

Thank you Gentlemen. I don't find this intuitive. Must be a generational (or basic stupidity) thing. Can you please give it to me in the mix format I enter on ER9X when I select EDIT in the mix menu rather than what the mix looks like on the mix page. For somebody having difficulty with ER9x trying to achieve '+5% Thr offset (+5%) switch (ELE)' is not obvious.
Source - THR
Weight - ?
Offset - ?
SWitch - ELE
Multiplex - ?
Anything else ?
(I may have got the menu names wrong because I'm at home & don't have my Tx here)
I did completely clear this THR mix on Ch2 but Ch2 now behaves strangely. I'll try completely clearing the only remaining Ch2 'CH2 100 Ele' mix and start again. I seem to have a bug.

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jhsa
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Re: Programming Ele mix with throttle

Post by jhsa » Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:33 am

Channel 2 was an example. That mix goes on your elevator channel. It might not look intuitive because you can actually see the mix. Other transmitters have it hidden, if they have it at all..
Source - Thr
Weight - 5%
Offset - 5%
Switch - whatever switch you want to use
Multiplex- add

No need to touch anything else. You might need to tweak the values as we don't have the same model so the amount of weight or offset could be wrong as well as the direction..

We are preparing a er9x manual for you ;) :)
I wonder how many people will actually read it.. :)

João
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plasticbaldy
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Re: Programming Ele mix with throttle

Post by plasticbaldy » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:27 am

Thank you Joao, I have the manual and I've read it many times but it's written in language that can be interpreted more than one way. I now understand some of this except the offset. Why 5 or do you mean -5 [you put a hyphen (-) ] in front of the other values ? if zero is center stick then fully closed throttle would be -100 or 100 - No ? Or if this relates to the ELE stick then how do you relate offset to this please ?

plasticbaldy
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Re: Programming Ele mix with throttle

Post by plasticbaldy » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:53 am

OK Thanks. The mix now works. There were some other unintended mixes causing the weird (not a bug ?)behaviour that I didn't notice and I must have been added when I had clicked 'INSERT' during previous programming attempts.
But I still don'y understand a couple of things ;
- 'Offset'. I've changed the values to +100 and -100 but I can't see what is happening here ?
- With the mix you have shown me I have ELE selected for SWITCH, when I flip the ELE (dual rate) switch with the throttle closed the elevator servo goes up a few degrees. The Elevator trim is centered. What's happening here ?

plasticbaldy
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Re: Programming Ele mix with throttle

Post by plasticbaldy » Mon Feb 02, 2015 5:32 am

Further to my "- With the mix you have shown me I have ELE selected for SWITCH, when I flip the ELE (dual rate) switch with the throttle closed the elevator servo goes up a few degrees. The Elevator trim is centered. What's happening here ? " Then the elevator does what I want and goes down a few degrees as I open the throttle.
But now I think I'd like the elevator to only go down when the throttle passes mid point. I'm not getting this with OFFSET at 0. I obviously don't understand OFFSET.

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jhsa
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Re: Programming Ele mix with throttle

Post by jhsa » Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:29 am

Can you post your eeprom here? download it into eepe, save it and attatch it to your post.. I would like to know why with the throttle closed the elevator is going up a few degrees as you say.

Attached there is a little part from the new (not yet released) manual that explains the "fix offset" Just read it and let us know if you then understand better how it works.

Question, do you know what offset does in other radios, or are you completely new to computer radios?

Here is the attempt at making the elevator go down a little proportionally to the throttle stick but only when it passes the center..

CH2 +100% Ele
10% Thr switch (ELE) Curve (x>0)

Source Thr
Weight 10% (This means that when throttle is at full, the value of the mix will be 10%)
Curve x>0 (This means under middle point the value of the mix will remain zero and at full it will be the value of weight, in this case 10%
Switch ELE
Multiplex add (The value from this mix will be added to the mix above it)

The curve (x>0) means that the mix will only respond to positive values from the throttle stick. For the negative values (under the center) the output of that mix will be 0 and will not "add" to the elevator channel. this is an "add" mix. That means that the value from the mix with the throttle input on the second line will be added to the first mix. A couple examples so you understand what is happening:

If elevator value is +10 and throttle is under middle point (zero- remember only positive values will affect the mix) +10 + 0 = 10. The elevator value remain unchanged with throttle below center.

If elevator value is +10 and you move the throttle stick up to say 3/4 of full throttle, its value will be 5% and will be added to the elevator mix, so 10 + 5 =15%

If elevator is at center (0%) and you go full throttle, the value of the weight on the throttle mix (10%) will be added to the elevator channel, like this:

0% + 10% = 10% the elevator moves down by 10%

I hope that this explanation is simple enough.. :)
Advice - insert this mix in eepe, play with different values. that's how we learn. If you do it on the radio with a live model, please remove the prop(s) as you are playing with the throttle..

João
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Fix Offset.pdf
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Daedalus66
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Programming Ele mix with throttle

Post by Daedalus66 » Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:30 pm

Nigel, I think you forgot the offset in the mix ;) :)

Assuming you have elevator on channel 2:

CH2 +100% Ele
+5% Thr offset (+5%) switch (ELE)

The offset makes sure the Thr mix uses only positive values between 0 and 10%, depending on the throttle stick position, that will be added to the elevator channel value. The ELE switch enables/disables the mix.

João
Of course I did! And I had exactly that mix ready to type in. My only excuse is that I got distracted and pushed the send button carelessly. :(

Just to add one point to Joao's explanations, don't keep referring to the switch as "ELE (dual rate)". For our purposes, it's simply the ELE switch and even that is only an arbitrary label. In Er9x, the switches have no function unless you assign them a function. So the only reason to use this particular switch might be that it happens to be labeled "ELE D/R" on the transmitter, so is easy to remember. You could just as well use the RUD switch if its position suited you better.

This stuff is not easy -- till you get it, then it suddenly seems much easier than a conventional transmitter, where most things are hidden and your choices are limited.

Offset is one of the more confusing concepts for many people, whether they are using Er9x or any other programmable transmitter. I think of it as shifting the action of a mix along a line that goes from -100 to 0 to +100. With no offset, the action is centered on 0 and works symmetrically (in this case up as well as down). We have to shift things so the mix applies only down. That's what happens with the basic mix. To get more sophisticated, you need, as Joao points out, to use a curve.

Some of this is possible with most programmable transmitters but few have the power and flexibility of Er9x.

So it's really worth the effort to get to the bottom of all this! And it's fun!

plasticbaldy
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Re: Programming Ele mix with throttle

Post by plasticbaldy » Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:15 pm

jhsa wrote:Can you post your eeprom here? download it into eepe, save it and attatch it to your post.. I would like to know why with the throttle closed the elevator is going up a few degrees as you say.

Attached there is a little part from the new (not yet released) manual that explains the "fix offset" Just read it and let us know if you then understand better how it works.

Question, do you know what offset does in other radios, or are you completely new to computer radios?

Here is the attempt at making the elevator go down a little proportionally to the throttle stick but only when it passes the center..

CH2 +100% Ele
10% Thr switch (ELE) Curve (x>0)

Source Thr
Weight 10% (This means that when throttle is at full, the value of the mix will be 10%)
Curve x>0 (This means under middle point the value of the mix will remain zero and at full it will be the value of weight, in this case 10%
Switch ELE
Multiplex add (The value from this mix will be added to the mix above it)

The curve (x>0) means that the mix will only respond to positive values from the throttle stick. For the negative values (under the center) the output of that mix will be 0 and will not "add" to the elevator channel. this is an "add" mix. That means that the value from the mix with the throttle input on the second line will be added to the first mix. A couple examples so you understand what is happening:

If elevator value is +10 and throttle is under middle point (zero- remember only positive values will affect the mix) +10 + 0 = 10. The elevator value remain unchanged with throttle below center.

If elevator value is +10 and you move the throttle stick up to say 3/4 of full throttle, its value will be 5% and will be added to the elevator mix, so 10 + 5 =15%

If elevator is at center (0%) and you go full throttle, the value of the weight on the throttle mix (10%) will be added to the elevator channel, like this:

0% + 10% = 10% the elevator moves down by 10%

I hope that this explanation is simple enough.. :)
Advice - insert this mix in eepe, play with different values. that's how we learn. If you do it on the radio with a live model, please remove the prop(s) as you are playing with the throttle..

João
Thanks for the time you're taking to help me. Your explanations are simple enough for my simple intellect. lol

I'll download eepe at my workshop or bring my Tx home to this PC where I have eepe & attach it to a post.

So if I use a curve (which I'm familiar with bcs I use ER9x with my helis) then I don't need to use offset ? Right ?

cheers, Andy

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jhsa
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Re: Programming Ele mix with throttle

Post by jhsa » Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:32 pm

What an offset does, is to add a value to the mix. so, when you apply an offset to 10 to a mix with center at zero, the new center will be 0+10=10, instead of zero..

The mix with the curve is also adding a value to the previous mix, based on the position of the throttle stick. What that particular curve is doing is letting only positive values pass. Therefore you only have movement of the elevator when the thr stick is over the middle point.

João
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Re: Programming Ele mix with throttle

Post by plasticbaldy » Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:43 pm

jhsa wrote:What an offset does, is to add a value to the mix. so, when you apply an offset to 10 to a mix with center at zero, the new center will be 0+10=10, instead of zero..

João
Thanks again. Sorry but I'm having difficulty understanding this. Maybe a practical example of an application might help.

Are you saying that the mix, if in both directions, will now be centered 10% above mid stick for Offset +10 and 10% below mid stick for Offset minus 10 ?

Where would I use this and then why not just use Curves ? Isn't Offset redundant if we can use Curves ? - I'm NOT criticizing ER9x here - I just need to understand this if I'm to have any chance of being able to program my mixes without needing help every time.

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Re: Programming Ele mix with throttle

Post by plasticbaldy » Tue Feb 03, 2015 1:43 am

jhsa wrote:Can you post your eeprom here? download it into eepe, save it and attatch it to your post.. I would like to know why with the throttle closed the elevator is going up a few degrees as you say.

João
OK I've got it now. No need to post my eeprom.
Mix was ;
Source - Thr
Weight - 5%
Offset - 5%
Switch - ELE
Multiplex- add
So when my throttle was 5% below centre (Offest -5%) and ELE switch was on the elevator servo progressively added down elevator as I closed the throttle. When I switched ELE switch off with the throttle closed the elevator jumped up the 5%.

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Re: Programming Ele mix with throttle

Post by Daedalus66 » Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:52 am

Yes, with negative offset, the whole mix shifts below 0, with maximum down at low throttle.

With the correct offset you will get the same effect but at high throttle -- turn off the ELE switch and the elevator will jump up.

plasticbaldy
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Re: Programming Ele mix with throttle

Post by plasticbaldy » Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:31 am

Thanks Gentlemen. I think I'm now 10% of the way to understanding all of the ER9x programming capacity. lol

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jhsa
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Re: Programming Ele mix with throttle

Post by jhsa » Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:44 am

You are very welcome. You will be teaching us in no time. :D

João
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Re: Programming Ele mix with throttle

Post by Daedalus66 » Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:12 pm

You are a prime candidate for the new manual. We're nearly there with it!

plasticbaldy
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Re: Programming Ele mix with throttle

Post by plasticbaldy » Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:47 pm

Absolutely. Thank you. How will I know when it's available please ? Can you post here so I get an email ? If you like you can send me a draft before you publish. Maybe send me the progressive draft of what you've already completed. My English language skills are better than most & I'll be able to point out what needs clarification because my subject knowledge is poor. If you get feedback from somebody who already understands they will be able to correct faults. But then somebody like me can point out the parts that need better explanation or can be interpreted more than one way like the current manual might be interpreted. Please don't assume that your knowledge of the subject material qualifies you to explain it to stupid people like me. lol Knowing & teaching are two very different skills. I really respect the effort you are making. Thank you. [email protected]

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Re: Programming Ele mix with throttle

Post by Daedalus66 » Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:52 am

We'll make sure everyone knows when it's available. Very close now.

Plasticbaldy: Thank you.

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